General Discussion Secundus

[Kelborn]

Welcome brettfp.

 

There's enough to deal with, blackshields, Knights and so on.

 

@Sigi: Though I'm through the Wolves part, I havrn't found the exact numbers per GC.

 

Can tell you that they were once 10k per company but were drpleted by secret campaigns, etc.

[Skalpynock]

Of those standing for the Throne Imperial of Terra:

 

⋅Alexandros Darshan VonSalim, Warmaster of the Imperium, lord of the V Legion, the Halcyon Wardens, loyal to the ideals of Peace and Progress

 

⋅Daer'dd Niimkiikaa, lord of the VI Legion, the Iron Bears, friend to the common man, first betrayed, first murdered

 

⋅Hectarion Mycenor, lord of the III Legion, the Crimson Lions, bringer of High Justice in time of Dire Need, loyal without question

 

⋅Pionus Santor, lord of the XIX Legion, the Scions Hospitalier, second fallen, in Iron raised again

 

⋅Niklaas, lord of the X Legion, the Fire Keepers, Prætorian of Terra

 

⋅Azus Bahamut, lord of the XIV Legion, the Dune Serpents, a legion broken and without honour

 

⋅Yucahu, loyal to a fault, lord of the IV Legion, the Void Eagles, a legion divided and of loyalty questioned

 

 

Of those standing under the Banner of the Stormlord

 

⋅Icarion, the Stormlord, first among equals, lord of the I Legion, the Harbingers, seer of his Imperium's fall

 

⋅Alexos Travier, lord of the XIII Legion, the Eagle Warriors, having been tainted in infancy by the Warp, high priest to Chaos undivided

 

⋅Raktra Akarro, lord of the VII Legion, the Berserkers of Uran, a being of malevolence and ultraviolence incarnate

 

⋅Koschei Kharkovic, lord of the VIII Legion, the Godslayers, who once believed in peace, murdered of brother, and whose tears are now only plague

 

⋅K'awil Pakal, lord of the XV Legion, the Grave Stalkers, pariah without brotherhood, who even in death still instills dread

 

⋅Sorrowsworn Morro, lord of the XVI Legion, the Drowned, tainted by the Xeno and the Warp, feasting on the suffering cries of the Eldar

 

 

Of those once loyal to the Stormlord, having fled his Warp-Taint, but beyond redemption to the Throne Imperial of Terra, having set seat in the Suzerainty of Strela

 

⋅Kozja Darzalas, lord of the IX Legion, the Warbringers, judged Excoriate for his gene-meddling in the Great Crusade

 

⋅The Jade General, lord of the XVII Legion, the Warriors of Peace, for whom betrayal was a logical choice

 

⋅Nomus Sardauk, lord of the XVIII Legion, the Steel Legion, in quest of knowledge and lost humanity

 

 

Of those whose loyalties have been subject to controversy

 

⋅Gwalchavad, lord of the XII Legion, the Wardens of Light, whose stance of avowed neutrality for the war's beginning turned into staunch loyalty to Terra

 

⋅Andezo Sambedi, lord of the XX Legion, the Predators, once loyal to Terra, later turned by the Stormlord, whose legion is no more

 

 

Of those lost too early

 

⋅Leman Russ, lord of the II Legion, Vlka Fenryka, [REDACTED]

 

⋅Magnus, lord of the XI Legion, the Thousand Sons, [REDACTED]

[Sigismund229]

Speaking of Executioners. Been trying to think up actions that serve to emphasise the fact tht the Lions are the Emperor's executioners. In canon the Wolves get Prospero and their charge at the SoH when Russ tries to decapitate the traitors before they reach Terra.

 

Now, the Lions aren't going to get a Prospero event in the Insurrection and while I did have the idea for a CL rush at Icarion, peeps didn't seem to like that. So. Ideas?

[Skalpynock]

One thing we discussed when using the Imperial Edict Template on FB was the Lions being sent to bring Kozja in chains, but being interrupted by the Day of Revelation.

[Sigismund229]

That gives me an idea

 

 

Alexandros looked at his brother. Hectarion looked worse than he had in decades, since the Qarith war. His armour was battered and dented, his beard ragged and matted with dried streaks of blood that he hadn’t had time to wash out. The enormous stone lion pelt that he wore about his shoulders was ragged, its edges tattered and the fur similarly matted with blood. Looking down at Godstooth form where it hung at Hectarion’s side, Alexandros could see it was missing several teeth and his brother’s shield, resting against his leg, had dozens of cracks and pits in it that had yet to be repaired. Even over this hololith, for Hectarion was far away from Terra at the frontlines of the Insurrection, Alexandros could tell that, in as much as a primarch could be, Hectarion was weary.

 

“You look terrible” Alexandros finally said.

 

Hectarion grunted and replied “Travier and Izumras’ bastards die hard and say what you like about Raktra but he’s handy in a fight. They’ve all made my legion bleed more than we have in decades”.

 

Alexandros nodded and said “And that brother, is why you shouldn’t be attempting this. We are few enough defending Terra as it is without you and your sons also being killed or scattered”.

 

Hectarion shook his head “Father ordered that Kozja be brought to him on Terra for a reason. He cannot be left free to conduct his experiments any more than his legion can be left free to march on Terra. Their death is a blood call”.

 

“So you are set on your course?” Alexandros asked, to which Hectarion simply nodded. Sighing Alexandros asked “How many of your sons have you gathered?”

 

“110,000” Hectarion replied “More are coming each day. The tribes will always answer the High King’s call. We shall be the axe that descends on Kozja’s neck”.

 

“He outnumbers you” Alexandros pointed out.

 

Hectarion broke into a savage grin and Alexandros saw the ferocious light brighten his eyes “The Warbringers are nothing without their primarch. They will be confused, leaderless. Easy prey for my sons blades”.

 

“That relies on you killing Kozja” Alexandros said.

 

“Which we both know I’m capable of”.

 

Nodding, Alexandros then asked “And your fleet?”

 

“Bloodied but unbowed” Hectarion replied “The Lupa Sanguis bears her scars well all told, as do most of the other ships. Those who don’t we’ll leave behind”.

 

Alexandros nodded finally and said “Bassi watch you Hec”.

 

“And you Alex” Hectarion replied before the hololithic link was cut. 

[Kelborn]

The wolves aren't the excutioners because of Prospero.

The wider Imperium gave them this title for what they were forced to do after Rangdan and other, yet secret, missions.

 

Tgey took this title and made it their own. Acting on Big E's behalf and only accepting his authority.

 

The whole executioner thing is an amalgation of different facts, wonderfully told by FW.

 

I really love what they did and can't wait to start the Sons' fluff.

 

Therefore, I'm not sure if the Lions need such a task in our universe.

[Sigismund229]

The main reason I want them to have some task of a similar sort is that it shows that they are fidelitas sine recursu rather than simply saying it as if it's just said then it sounds hollow. So for example, if the Lions are fidelitas sine recursu but then things such as the razing of Zbuch are conducted by the Fire Keepers, it begs the question of why it's the Lions as they haven't been actively shown as loyal without question. So I'm looking for ways to show that they are, starting with events like the razing of Jurfik where they sanction their own home for the Emperor

 

So what I meant was that, with the Wolves, we see that they are loyal beyond questioning with Prospero and their rush at Horus rather than simply being told that they are. Actions speak louder than words

Edited March 5, 2017 by Sigismund229

[bluntblade]

Sigi, I wonder if you're not mapping the Predators a tad too closely to the Wolves at this stage.

[Sigismund229]

Sigi, I wonder if you're not mapping the Predators a tad too closely to the Wolves at this stage.

Huh?

[MikhalLeNoir]

How about something which the emperor orders but nornally it would gi against the honor if the other legions or especially of the lions and the still do it. Would show their unbreakable bonds to the emperor mire than a kill a target which the emperor ordered prior to a galaxy wide civil war.

[bluntblade]

How important is Sine Recursis to their identity, really? What about them means it can't simply be Totalis? I'd actually have Void Eagles in the pitiless authors of culls role, and preserve the Lions' Viking adventurer vibe.

Yeah, wrong legion. Just woke up

[~Drakzilla~]

Yeah, I question why the Lions need to be the Emperor's executioners in this 'verse. It only makes the distinction between the Lions and the Wolves all the more blurred, to the point where they may just seem like Space Wolves in red.

[bluntblade]

Or Blackshields or help expand upon the Nightguard

I would like to see someone take on the traitor Wardens, Morning Stars or renegade Dune Serpents.

[Sigismund229]

The main reason was that they are fidelitas sine recursu so I was thinking I might as well show it otherwise people might question why they are listed as that. Although, possibly rather than needing to "execute" anyone during the Insurrection they:

 

-Burn their home on Terra when it rebels

 

-Clean up any residual mess left after Prospero? So annihilating remaining groups of SW and TS who are unwilling to be rolled into one of the larger legions?

 

@blunt: We chose the CL over the VE because the individual VE lack that sense of personal loyalty to the Emperor that the CL have. It's only Yucahu who is utterly loyal.

 

Also, are we rolling with their being a gene-seed crisis in some legions in our 'verse as there was in canon? If we are it would make explaining why the Lions were inactive for so long when compared with the HW much easier.

[Kelborn]

Fair enough, Sigi.

 

Just wanted to clarify what FW did with the title of executioner.

 

But may I assume the following:

 

Lions being those, who do the dirty jobs is fine. But it would isolate them as well. For example, the Wolves were avoided (missing the right word) because of them purging the remains of the Rangdan Xenoside, making them loners and outsiders.

 

For me, the Lions are obe of the key Legions within the loyalists. Imho it might be diffixukt to explain, why they are doing such acts of attrocities while being closely bonded with other Legions.

 

I try to not sound bias but maybe the Preds are more suitable for these kind of job.

 

They were the obes to hunt down usurpators (not the right word...), tyrants, opportunists and those selfishely acting within the Imperiun. They operated seperately, in the shadows, lurking for the right time to strike. Sometimes, they bring their victims before the Emperor, if needed. Most if the time, they chased their prey down, be it a person, a renegade regiment or a rebellious world. It's like a second, shadowy crusade (yeah, kinda like the ALs one before Alpharius was duscovered) within the Imperium.

 

I would rather see the Lions as the Emperors enforcers.

 

*edit*

I thought that geneseed flaws were already implemented and part of some Legions.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Kelborn

[Doctor Perils]

The main reason was that they are fidelitas sine recursu so I was thinking I might as well show it otherwise people might question why they are listed as that.

In all honesty this sounds like "they are f.s.r. because they are f.s.r.". This is in no way a criticism of the lions, it just feels like you are tacking on an element from Canon verse that doesn't actually add all that much to the personality of the crimson lions - I'd actually argue it removes from them as it seems like yet another element which makes them similar to the space wolves, which they really don't need.

Further, I'd argue that this "sine recursu" should not be found in our universe at all, as to me it feels like one of the hh space wolves' foundation elements, and copying it would detract both from the wolves and from the other legion.

 

What's more, the Crimson lions are supposed to be tied up for a good amount of time in the blood crusade, during which time they shouldn't be able to go off and get other tasks done. Plus, with the insurrection already started, I doubt that the emperor would command only kozja to be killed, and the crimson lions legion is a very inefficient tool to kill a single guy, when an assassination team can't do the job.

 

 

I think you shouldn't be thinking: should my legion have this role more then the void eagles or another (personally I think it should be none single legion as most could conduct these kinds of missions) - you should ask yourself "do the lions need this distinction for themselves to be special and unique".

[Sigismund229]

So, if I've understood correctly, what you're suggesting is that the Preds do the "dirty" jobs like assassinating governors and the wholesale purges the VIth were required to do after the Rangdan Xenocides. Meanwhile the Lions keep to the more "honourable" side of enforcing the Emperor's will(to the extent that such a thing exists)?

 

The way I'd been thinking about it was:

 

They get called back to raze Jurfik which they do. But then, as the sun rises over the funeral pyres of the people they killed, they realise what they've done. Fighting "foreign" enemies is one thing. This is another. This wasn't a battle. It was butchery of anyone who stood in their way, be they women, children or warriors and worse, the people of Jurfik, their kin. They're now kinslayers. How can they ever justify their actions? Loyalty. They conclude that they were the Emperor's chosen executioners and it was because of that they razed Jurfik, their home, to the ground. Then, when Hec takes over and the Mycenaeans come in they see what the Terrans did and the same potential in themselves and do the same thing as the Terrans did: justify it by believing they were made to be the Emperor's executioners. So that's the path the legion keeps walking in order to, basically, hide from themselves behind the mantle of executioners and loyalty.

 

^that was what I had in mind

 

 

@Thørn: The Blood Crusade starts in I think it's 050.M31. So a decade or so after the DoR, during which time the Lions are doing nothing(that we know of atm ;) ). So I'm trying to find stuff that they can do in that time frame that fits narratively and tbh I just loved that section in Vengeful Spirit when Russ is telling Malcador that he's going after Horus. He knows he's probably going to fail but he also knows he has to try. He needs to take the swing even if it costs him his arm. That was something I really looked forward to seeing only to be dissapointed by Yarant. I wanted to see Russ and the Vlka go charging guns blazing at Horus and an awesome punch up between the VIth and XVIth culminating in Russ vs Horus, the only one of his brothers he doesn't know if he can beat. And what did we get? Yarant. Where, for some reason, the Wolves are incapable of saving themselves, despite being repeatedly held up as savagery incarnate, but...the Raven Guard can? Really?? Just like, for some reason, the Wolves needed the Dark Angels to ride in and save the day at Alaxxes.

 

Anyway, ravings as a Vlka fan aside. I'm going to need to seriously rewrite the Lions fluff in the light of the Vlka fluff in Inferno as the two map too close for comfort as things stand in some areas, even leaving aside the whole executioners or not executioners business. Irritating but not entirely unexpected.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Sigismund229

[simison]

I am now permanently and keenly aware of just how different hobby games are from competitive tournaments. 

[Sigismund229]

That bad eh sim?

 

Similarities to Wolves:

-Mostly fight as infantry and prefer to fight up close and personal By this stage, very much a part of the Lions so I can't really change it. Plus I'm a foot slogger to my core and loathe using lots of flyers&tanks with a passion.

 

-Similar cultural influences This one's too late to change so I'll just need to work around it.

 

-Gene-curse. The Burden is a completely different beast to the Wulfen so I'm good there(I think). I do need to worry about making it distinct from the Black Rage though.

 

-Unwavering loyalty Yeah...this one is more problematic.

 

-More brutal&less restrained pre primarch As is this one.

 

Those are the similarities I've seen. However, as the CL's creator there may be some I haven't seen due to the CL being my boys. What are they?

 

Second Question: Which of their differences should I play up? And ideas on how to differentiate them?

 

Speaking of, I had an idea. In Scars we read that the WS are encouraged to pursue one of the "noble arts". Could be something the Lions do outside of combat, seeing as art forms such as poetry and smithing were BIG things in both the Brythonic Celtic and Anglo-Saxon cultures

Edited March 5, 2017 by Sigismund229

[bluntblade]

Got some war stories for us, Sim?

 

I'm inclined to echo Thorn on this. I worry that the things I especially liked about the Crimson Lions could get lost if you take them down this route. And, speaking without bias, the Predators would seem better suited to the role.

 

But above all, we aren't canon. We don't need a Legion to fill that role, necessarily. Indeed the Wolves would have done so until Prospero.

[simison]

Over a two-day period, I played 5 rounds of 1850-point games. Fighting as Blood Angels, I faced off against Genestealer Cults, Orks, Necrons, Harlequins, and an Imperial Knight/Riptide combo. I barely won against the Imperial Knight/Riptide and Necron armies. Took a weird minor loss from the Orks, but was stomped by the Harlequins and the Cult. I placed 19 out of 28 and ended up winning a White Scars datacard set (grabbed it for a friend) and the Shadow of Ullanor book by Rob Sanders. Actually I got a Farsight novel, but knew the guy who had the Ullanor book and persuaded him to trade with me since Ullanor might provide ideas for us in the future. I also earned three purity seals for First Blood/Strike. 

 

I have discovered my pet peeve is when I charge Blood Angel elite units against xeno units and fail to win or, worse, fail to inflict a single casualty. The Harlequins have forever earned my hatred for wiping out a Death Company squad before they could even strike, despite charging the dandies. 

 

At no point did I ever have an enemy on defense. My detachment was the Angel's Fury formation, three Stormravens with 10 TAC squads aboard. Sergeants get free Teleport Homers, and anyone who Deepstrikes within a foot of two of the homers does not scatter and can charge. But they start in reserve, though I can roll on Turn 1 and reroll. 6-man Death Company with PF and Dante leading a Sanguinary Squad with a Priest to deep-strike. Three 5-man scout squads with camo cloaks were to sit on objectives and survive, until the rest of the Angels could fly in. I have come to the decision that this is not a competitive list. The Stormravens can easily be forced to jink and can't put enough firepower to warrant the inclusion. The deepstrike charge is a worthless trick if there's not enough of a hammer blow, which the Death Company and Dante fail to provide. 

 

Now, the Ork game was, quite frankly, odd because it was ruined due to a confusing rule: the lifta-droppa. It was on an Ork Stompa, and the Ork player thought he could fire it at a zooming flyer. All he had to roll was a 4+, and the flyer immediately exploded. Me, being a little too trusting, did not contest the rule later until he did it to my second Stormraven. You see, I was confused when said that if he hit a non-zooming vehicle, they too exploded after he explained that zooming flyers instantly died when forced to go backwards. Well, it turns out, he was wrong. Yes, it could instantly down a zooming flyer, but he needed to hit first as a snap shot. So, to try to make things even, he rolled 2 snap fires and missed. Instead of having a single victory point, I was bumped up to 4 VPs as consolidation. I don't harbor a grudge against the Ork Player, who was the one who suggested I have the other VPs and apologized profusely for his mistake. ...actually, the Shadow of Ullanor prize looks a little ironic from that perspective. Anyway, I'm just intellectually curious how things would've gone had we understood the lifta-droppa rules. That gun forced me to change my entire strategy for that game, so I wonder what would have happened otherwise. 

 

Highlights: In the first game and after slaying a Riptide, the lone surviving Death Company found himself just outside of a ruin with two Riptides staring right at him. They promptly shoot two smart missile systems and their ion cannons, 16 shots in total, 6 of which is AP 2. I have him Go to Ground, forgetting I can't do that since he is Fearless. He promptly tanks the missiles, until the ion cannons come to bear. My opponent has poor shooting and only inflicts 2 AP 2 wounds. I roll two 6's, making the 6+ cover save. 

 

Next turn, Dante promptly charges the two Riptides with his men in a disordered charge. In two rounds, he slays one Riptide and sweeps the other. I think that's what won me the game. 

 

Against the Necrons, a Scout Sergeant was able to duel against three Necron jetbikes, surviving four rounds by himself until reinforced by a TAC squad. 

 

The Necron Overload was killed Turn 2 when Dante and one other infernus pistol-wielding Sanguinary Guard wrecked his chariot after deep-striking next to him. This happened after being hosed down by a Stormraven's assault cannon. 

 

In the final turn of the Necron game with Purge the Alien as the mission, I managed to tie the primary mission by having Dante and his squad charge and wipe out a squad of warriors. What was impressive was what came after. In his last turn before time ran out, the Necron player fired two 10-man warrior squads, rapid-fire, 10-man Immortal squad, and two Necron jetbikes into Dante's squad, desperately trying to wipe them out. Dante himself tanks over 20 shots coming at him while taking only a single-wound, showing the Necron forces that one doesn't need Reanimation Protocols to be a symbol of endurance. 

[simison]

Well, I goofed. I was working my way through the Harbingers and realized that they don't meet the minimum unique stuff, no wargear for example. So, I was double checking canon Legion unique stuff and realized I made a mistake. Not every legion has 3 unique characters, which I set as the standard. Turns out the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists only have the two. So, I'm amending the slot system so that's 1-2-2, wargear-units-characters.

 

With all that said, is there anyone of the currently finished legions (Godslayers, Grave Stalkers, & Iron Bears) who wants to modify their rules?

[Grifftofer]

I'm currently working on a revision of mine in light of the revised Pariah rules.

[MikhalLeNoir]

So we are only allowed to have 1 wargear, 2 chars and 2 units? Or is that the minimum and we still have 1-2-3 +3?

However as fw upped theur number of booms up to 20 i wouldn't be surprised if there will be new units for the old avaiable.

 

 

Edit: about the sine recursu etc.

 

Remember that we have an assassin ninja: Azus. Who would be better to assassinate special targets than a guy with a sniper and his legion of snipers?

Edited March 6, 2017 by MikhalLeNoir

[bluntblade]

I'm leaning more and more towards not necessarily needing one. The Wolves had filled that role, and with Prospero we have less precedent of a Legion being called to sanction another.