Angelus Speculation

[Allart01]

You people make the book sound like it'll be about Blood Angels with just some (secondary presence) Dark Angels in it.

I hope (and think) this won't be the case.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Kharn the Bloody

[Arkangilos]

What? The discussion has been pretty balanced, and the ones that keep bringing up the Blood Angels are Blood Angel fans, so obviously we are focusing on that?

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah can't fault a man for wishlisting for stuff for his legion. I'm guilty myself, the unit I'd like to see most in book 8 is atrementar, some ws5 terminators with some sort of extra special rules would be awesome. That being said I'm sure BA and DA will get the most coverage, and probably an equal amount of stuff. 

[Blindhamster]

I'd imagine it'll be fairly evenly split.

 

As noted, DA fans will want DA stuff, BA fans will want BA stuff, NL wants NL, Daemon fans want Daemons etc etc.

 

That's fine, we all have favourites and our own reasons for looking forward to the book.

[Black Cohort]

I do hope that this book adds some generic legion options in addition to the legion specific stuff.

[RandomMarine]

The book after Angelus best be the one to bring the older legions up to a similar power level to the the newer ones going by TS and SW or I'm done actually playing And I'll just paint models I like

[b1soul]

Yeah, Sanguinius has been given a steep reputation to live up to, and we haven't even seen anything other than, "this Primarch that can see the future somehow managed to fight Sanguinius as an equal because he can see the future, but cannot fight off any of the other loyalists Primarchs."

I dunno if Haley was trying to subtly imply Sanguinius' power...but the fact that a combatant is wearing power armour (and the other is not) should be a very big factor affecting a fight between humans, Astartes, or Primarchs

 

Curze rolled his eyes. ‘How many times must I tell you people that I have left that name behind? Night Haunter, Night Haunter! It’s not so hard to remember.’ He shook his head. Curtains of greasy hair brushed his war-plate. ‘Ah, ah! Not too close now, Angel.’ He rocked Azkaellon with his foot as one might rub the belly of a pet. ‘I can end the life of this one in a trice.’ His ruined smile widened. ‘But I won’t. Promise. I am here to talk.’

‘I have nothing to say to you.’

 

. . .

 

‘You and Guilliman speak so often of logic, so let us consider the evidence. In skill at arms, I outmatch you. I always have. I outmatch most of you. I am armoured, you are not. Your blade is of simple steel and energy, I have my claws.’ He tapped the back of one set on the eagle armrests of the throne.

 

‘Try then,’ said Sanguinius. ‘Attack. Let us put our relative skills to the test.’

 

The dialogue just struck me as not very consistent with what actually happens

[Ashur]

So they did it.

 

They kept the White Scars for last.

 

I'll swallow my sadness

[helterskelter]

So they did it.

 

They kept the White Scars for last.

 

I'll swallow my sadness

Probably won't just be white scars though, it'll probably be scars with an update for DG and EC and maybe an opportunity for the 1ksons chap they pick up to make an appearance. Maybe even AL too (though not likely, they're probably being saved for the solar war). Heck the scars get around!

And because they're getting solo treatment you know that means jaghatai will be done for them too.

 

In terms of Angelus I'd like to see sanguinius released first, even though the lion is probably an easier sculpt (I can't even begin to imagine what a pain wings are to do), and some nice pads for Atramentar, don't need a fancy sculpt, just some nostraman lions.

[b1soul]

As I've mentioned before, the WS could be introduced with multiple other legions

 

2nd Battle of Prospero

 

WS fleet vs. DG fleet

 

Jaghatai vs. Mort and their terminator elite

 

WS harrying and then trying to elude SoH, DG, and EC

 

Battle of Kalium

 

EDIT: Throw in SW, AL, Sagyar Mazan, Shadrak Meduson, Black Shields...and it's a party

Edited February 11, 2017 by b1soul

[Forward Assist]

So far, FW haven't released any legion specific vehicles have they?

 

I'm guessing it's a pretty slim chance the sexy archaeotech vehicles the First Legion had in AoC will make an appearance...?

[Liege]

As I've mentioned before, the WS could be introduced with multiple other legions

 

2nd Battle of Prospero

 

WS fleet vs. DG fleet

 

Jaghatai vs. Mort and their terminator elite

 

WS harrying and then trying to elude SoH, DG, and EC

 

Battle of Kalium

 

EDIT: Throw in SW, AL, Sagyar Mazan, Shadrak Meduson, Black Shields...and it's a party

Unlikely in my opinion, the White Scars weren't really engaged in any meaningful battles before Terra so I'd be fairly confident they'll be released last.

On the upside, that means that the Khan will get a sick model release potentially alongside the Emperor!

[b1soul]

Unlikely in my opinion, the White Scars weren't really engaged in any meaningful battles before Terra so I'd be fairly confident they'll be released last.

On the upside, that means that the Khan will get a sick model release potentially alongside the Emperor!

We already know they'll be released last, some time after Angelus

 

As for whether the WS have engaged in any meaningful battles before Terra...

 

Yeah, 2nd Battle of Prospero was more of a fleet skirmish coupled with a primarch and bodyguard duel

 

...but then you have this 4 year counter-offensive by the Khan

 

Four years ago, such tactics [by the White Scars] had reaped ruin on the Warmaster’s advance. Accustomed only to the ragged assaults of Isstvan’s hollowed-out dupes, the traitors had taken time to adjust to the Khan’s more orchestrated counter-offensive.

 

The Death Guard had suffered particularly badly, unable to match the voidmastery of the V Legion, but all of them – Fulgrim’s chem-addicted sensation-seekers, Perturabo’s obsessive engineers, Mortarion’s grim foot-sloggers, even the Sons of Horus themselves – had taken their share of pain. But that was four years ago. Every Legion was a living thing, gifted with commanders of infinite subtlety and tactical understanding.

 

The Death Guard refined their fleet strategy, bringing to bear greater firepower against the Khan’s wild riders.

 

The Iron Warriors gave their fleet enough heavy physical anti-ship protection to turn their attackers into great lumps of plasma-laced slag.

 

The Sons of Horus did what they always did, responding with such concentrated brutality and directed discipline that the two Legions, once close in understanding and sympathy, became blood-sworn in antipathy through accumulated atrocity.

 

The Emperor’s Children had learned just as fast, and from their positions at Kalium they recognised the Chogorian deployment of the False Spear. They knew that the Lance of Heaven and its escorts were not as all-powerful as they appeared, and that the more ephemeral wings of destroyers and frigates had been loaded beyond design capacity.

 

They knew that to meet the main charge with equal force would invite disaster, and that they had to respond to the full spectrum of the incoming flotilla – just as spread out, just as fast.

 

. . .

 

We failed, Qin Xa’s thoughts proclaimed, matter-of-factly.

+It was an impossible task.+

I would have driven them out of that place. I would have seen them run, just as we made them run on Peressimar.

That had been two years ago now. A great victory, driven by surprise and speed, perhaps the last of them.

 

I think "reaping ruin on the Warmaster's advance" would involve some "meaningful" battles. Doesn't sound less significant than Thramas or even Signus. Even the Scouring of Nostramo enjoyed substantial attention in Retribution.

 

I highly doubt FW will wait until the Siege to cover the WS. There's plenty of justification to do so earlier if FW is inclined.

 

EDIT: If I'm not mistaken, according to m_r_parker's update...FW tried to fit WS into Book 8

 

"Tried to get WS in, but size this book could already become there would be no way to do them justice

 

- Alan Bligh"

 

Keeping fingers crossed for a Book 9 or 10 appearance

Edited February 11, 2017 by b1soul

[Liege]

 

Unlikely in my opinion, the White Scars weren't really engaged in any meaningful battles before Terra so I'd be fairly confident they'll be released last.

On the upside, that means that the Khan will get a sick model release potentially alongside the Emperor!

We already know they'll be released last, some time after Angelus

 

As for whether the WS have engaged in any meaningful battles before Terra...

 

Yeah, 2nd Battle of Prospero was more of a fleet skirmish coupled with a primarch and bodyguard duel

 

...but then you have this 4 year counter-offensive by the Khan

 

Four years ago, such tactics [by the White Scars] had reaped ruin on the Warmaster’s advance. Accustomed only to the ragged assaults of Isstvan’s hollowed-out dupes, the traitors had taken time to adjust to the Khan’s more orchestrated counter-offensive.

 

The Death Guard had suffered particularly badly, unable to match the voidmastery of the V Legion, but all of them – Fulgrim’s chem-addicted sensation-seekers, Perturabo’s obsessive engineers, Mortarion’s grim foot-sloggers, even the Sons of Horus themselves – had taken their share of pain. But that was four years ago. Every Legion was a living thing, gifted with commanders of infinite subtlety and tactical understanding.

 

The Death Guard refined their fleet strategy, bringing to bear greater firepower against the Khan’s wild riders.

 

The Iron Warriors gave their fleet enough heavy physical anti-ship protection to turn their attackers into great lumps of plasma-laced slag.

 

The Sons of Horus did what they always did, responding with such concentrated brutality and directed discipline that the two Legions, once close in understanding and sympathy, became blood-sworn in antipathy through accumulated atrocity.

 

The Emperor’s Children had learned just as fast, and from their positions at Kalium they recognised the Chogorian deployment of the False Spear. They knew that the Lance of Heaven and its escorts were not as all-powerful as they appeared, and that the more ephemeral wings of destroyers and frigates had been loaded beyond design capacity.

 

They knew that to meet the main charge with equal force would invite disaster, and that they had to respond to the full spectrum of the incoming flotilla – just as spread out, just as fast.

 

. . .

 

We failed, Qin Xa’s thoughts proclaimed, matter-of-factly.

+It was an impossible task.+

I would have driven them out of that place. I would have seen them run, just as we made them run on Peressimar.

That had been two years ago now. A great victory, driven by surprise and speed, perhaps the last of them.

 

I think "reaping ruin on the Warmaster's advance" would involve some "meaningful" battles. Doesn't sound less significant than Thramas or even Signus. Even the Scouring of Nostramo enjoyed substantial attention in Retribution.

 

I highly doubt FW will wait until the Siege to cover the WS. There's plenty of justification to do so earlier if FW is inclined.

 

EDIT: If I'm not mistaken, according to m_r_parker's update...FW tried to fit WS into Book 8

 

"Tried to get WS in, but size this book could already become there would be no way to do them justice

 

- Alan Bligh"

 

Keeping fingers crossed for a Book 9 or 10 appearance

 

I've read the White Scars novels that I believe you're quoting from and they made it exceedingly apparent that all the Scars were denying was attempting to delay the Warmaster by being as annoying as possible, and that it only worked for a few years without any notable victories. Using the phrase "Reaped ruin on the Warmaster's advance" is just prose I'm afraid. Corax claims he can beat almost any other Primarch, the Lion claims he should be Warmaster, the Wolves claim Prospero was a great victory, the White Scars using the phrase "Reaped ruin" is hyperbole that can't be taken literally unless given specific incidents with details. And as you yourself quoted, being annoying only worked briefly before the traitors adapted and the Scars had to run back to Terra.

 

"I would have driven them out of that place. I would have seen them run, just as we made them run on Peressimar.

That had been two years ago now. A great victory, driven by surprise and speed, perhaps the last of them."

 

 Per this quote, they made an unknown force run from an unknown location due to having both surprise and speed on their side, two years before the end of the four years (implying the latter two years had no great victories). This is the only stated victory in this entire 4 year mystery time, so you can see why I don't believe the White Scars had any actual meaningful battles before Terra (besides getting beaten twice by the Death Guard in the only conflicts we have details of) 

 

I think "reaping ruin on the Warmaster's advance" would involve some "meaningful" battles. Doesn't sound less significant than Thramas or even Signus. Even the Scouring of Nostramo enjoyed substantial attention in Retribution.

 

White Scars are a cool legion, but 'reaping ruin' is a turn of phrase, not an actual fact. It has no details and is not even a fraction of a fraction as important as Thramas or Sigmus or Nostramo because those all had hard fights with great detail with volatile outcomes. The Scars annoyed a few traitor legions for a brief period with no notable wins besides maybe "Peresimmar" of which we know nothing about (could have been a shipping yard full of recruits). They then ran back to Terra because Mortarion pinned them down. Their only major event was on Terra, but at least that's literally the biggest event in the Heresy.

 

If you can quote actual sources to me proving me wrong besides using the hyperbolic phrase "reaping ruin". I might change my mind, but I did an hour of googling and turned up nothing of note on the White Scars contribution to the heresy.

[Black Cohort]

The Khan bought the Imperium several years to prepare for the invasion of Terra, which is a big deal.  That is several more years that Dorn had to fortify Terra, Malcador had to spread his agents across known space, give other brothers time to make it or be on their way to Terra and for the Imperium to build who knows how many weapons, vehicles and suits of armour.

[Jarkaira]

^^ Wow. Oh my Omnissiah. Did that guy just use an phrase instead of an actual fact? Especially on the internetz and such? What a heresy.

 

Only thing is that the whole message of yours is something I can only think as coming out a magos' binary vox instead of some Space Wolf.

[Ranwulf]

Before Prince of Crows, Thramas didn't even existed. Now the Night Lords and the Dark Angels have their own specialized campaign to have at each other. Which is another point, the Dark Angels also didn't have "Major Engagements" during the Horus Heresy, what changed them truly was Caliban. This didn't stop the guys at BL and FW to create some place where those two could meet up. In fact, the Dark Angels wouldn't even get anything in the next book if that wasn't the case!

 

The White Scars held the Traitors at bay for four years, and it was even said in Path of Heaven that it was this legion that was not only slowing down their war effort, but effectively denying them Terra because they couldn't attack the Throneworld while the White Scars could harrier them. That is enough of a timeframe to create some good and cool battles for the Scars.

 

I see no reason to not make the next book after Angelus about the White Scars.

 

Ran

 

Edit:added Not*

Edited February 12, 2017 by Ranwulf

[RandomMarine]

Forgeworld and bl have been adding stuff to the canon since book 1. The IH literally had nothing post istvaan 5 now we have meduson basically running the guerrilla elements on the loyalists and seriously hampering Horus and Autek Mor running round doing things that even the traitors can't conceive of. Salamanders got a perpetual primarch and a dreadnought saint. RG had their hidden tragedy expanded on ( I hope we get rules for raptors at some point)

[b1soul]

The Scars annoyed a few traitor legions for a brief period with no notable wins besides maybe "Peresimmar" of which we know nothing about (could have been a shipping yard full of recruits).

That's the point isn't it?

 

We know little other than the barebones info in Path of Heaven. It could've been a shipping yard of recruits (odd for Qin Xa to describe it as a great victory)...it could've been a major engagement involving multiple companies.

 

Those little nuggets could easily be expanded upon by FW according to FW's preferences.

 

1. The Khan engaged in a 4 year, counter-offensive against SoH, DG, IW, and EC

 

2. Perissimar was only one out of multiple "great victories" according to Path of Heaven. I suspect that the WS, far from being invincible, also suffered at least a few great defeats.

 

3. Not enough info is available in PoH for you to possibly conclude that the WS were only an insignificant annoyance to the Traitors

 

4. In light of the barebones info Wraight provides, I suppose FW could downplay the role of the WS before the Siege (as you seem to prefer)...or alternatively, FW could easily do the opposite and play it up.

 

It would actually be exceedingly easy to do the latter, e.g. FW could simply describe Peressimar and other significant WS victories (or defeats) as large battles resulting in substantial loss of WS and/or Traitor assets

 

5. At a minimum, I don't think the harrying campaign of the WS would be less significant than Thramas

 

Claiming "'reap ruin on the Warmaster's advance' is mere prose" is a rather self-serving argument.

 

I don't know how Wraight could make it clearer that the Khan has caused substantial damage and delay to the Traitors...enough for Horus to divert Mortarion and Eidolon to hunt him down.

 

I strangely feel like I'm talking to MarshalLoss all over again.

 

The Khan bought the Imperium several years to prepare for the invasion of Terra, which is a big deal. That is several more years that Dorn had to fortify Terra, Malcador had to spread his agents across known space, give other brothers time to make it or be on their way to Terra and for the Imperium to build who knows how many weapons, vehicles and suits of armour.

Before Prince of Crows, Thramas didn't even existed. Now the Night Lords and the Dark Angels have their own specialized campaign to have at each other. Which is another point, the Dark Angels also didn't have "Major Engagements" during the Horus Heresy, what changed them truly was Caliban. This didn't stop the guys at BL and FW to create some place where those two could meet up. In fact, the Dark Angels wouldn't even get anything in the next book if that wasn't the case!

 

The White Scars held the Traitors at bay for four years, and it was even said in Path of Heaven that it was this legion that was not only slowing down their war effort, but effectively denying them Terra because they couldn't attack the Throneworld while the White Scars could harrier them. That is enough of a timeframe to create some good and cool battles for the Scars.

 

I see no reason to not make the next book after Angelus about the White Scars.

 

Ran

Edit:added Not*

Forgeworld and bl have been adding stuff to the canon since book 1. The IH literally had nothing post istvaan 5 now we have meduson basically running the guerrilla elements on the loyalists and seriously hampering Horus and Autek Mor running round doing things that even the traitors can't conceive of. Salamanders got a perpetual primarch and a dreadnought saint. RG had their hidden tragedy expanded on ( I hope we get rules for raptors at some point)

I think it's certainly within FW's ability to either downplay or play up the Scars' role prior to Terra

 

I don't see why they would choose to do the former though...when they've chosen to expand fluff in many other instances.

Edited February 13, 2017 by b1soul

[bluntblade]

The Scars, the only Loyalist Legion in the field, successfully hindered four Legions and their allies thoroughly enough to buy years of digging in for their allies. It's not a matter of being annoying, it's a matter of attacking in the right places and with sufficient speed and sparse enough deployments to avoid exposing themselves to crippling defeats. That's an enormous achievement, and I think FW should recognise that. Hopefully they'll be suitably awesome when they do take the stage.

[b1soul]

On the subject of Angelus, I'm very glad Thramas and Signus are getting a big spotlight. The WS don't fit that theme and FW have wisely kept them out of Angelus

 

I've been waiting for a FW book covering Thramas ever since reading Prince of Crows

 

As others have mentioned, I don't think Thramas is as huge as Istvaan, Prospero, Calth, or the Siege...but it deserves fleshing out, just as the post-Prospero WS campaign does

 

Frankly, I don't see why FW would wait until the Siege before getting to the Vth

Edited February 13, 2017 by b1soul

[Blindhamster]

Perhaps discussion of white scars success (or failure) should go into its own thread? I'd not mind joining in on that discussion too.

 

But angelus officially isn't about the scars currently.

 

As a Blood Angels player I'm still unsure what to think about key focus for the Blood Angels portion of the book being on signus... it's a hugely defining moment, but it wasn't a long or complex campaign, and whilst I'm not a huge fan of swallows work, fear to tread wasn't terrible and did cover the event in quite some detail... so not sure what FW will do with it.

 

Or maybe the Siege of baal or passage of the angel of death (if that's about sanguinius) will be the focus of the BA part of the book.

 

I'm very interested to see what characters and units BA get. I DO think people will be disappointed if they expect BL characters. I suspect we may see one of them (guess would be azkaellon) and then one or two new characters of FW devising.

 

For units, Sanguinary Guard feel like an obvious one and I hope we see them (I'd guess at FW upgrade kit for the plastic ones rather than a full kit too). But I don't know what else we may see...

 

 

For Dark Angel's, I'm really excited to see the lion, based on russ... I reckon the lion will be ridiculous rules wise and should have a great sculpt too!

 

I assume thramas will be a large chunk of this book and probably the focus for the DA element, so seeing how that gets expanded from the tidbits we have had from BL so far should be pretty interesting, but overall, again I'm more intrigued about the new lore for them.

 

I can't really speculate on characters and units for the DA though.

[b1soul]

On primarchs...

the Lion should give Russ a run for his money and Sang may even eclipse them both

 

On characters...

I'd like some impressive heroes, e.g. Alajos, Corswain, Amit, and Azkaellon.

 

I'm hoping they'll be in the same league as Sevatar. A bit of wish listing, but I'm a long-time fan of the Angels.

 

On the events themselves...

Can't wait to have Thramas fleshed out fully, along with the final battle, the surprise attack shattering the NL fleet and leaving Curze in a deathly coma.

 

Not crazy about Daemons so I hope the other BA events are covered heavily rather than Signus

[bluntblade]

It'd be nice to learn how the Lion knew where the Night Lords would run to. He essentially broke them as a Legion with two consecutive battles.

[Runefyre]

I'm really, really curious to know how the Lion stacks up against Russ. I also want to see Sanguinius' model.

 

I wonder if since Russ is all about defense, the Lion won't get something like "always successfully hits on a 3+ (or 4+), no matter what" or something like that.