The Primaris Space Marines and the Space Wolves

[Valerian]

I might be the only one , but I am failing to see the use of Primaris Marines. From what I see the Primaris Marines are simply tactical squad with +1 Wound, +1 Attack, and a better gun.  Now if the GH use the same stats as the Tactical Marines, but have the option of using chainswords wouldn't that make the a full 10-man GH squad superior to a 5-man  intercessor squad, at least in melee? The GH would have more attacks (+1 attack from the chainsword + chainsword special rule where it gets an additional attack. So 3 attack from GH+chainsword?) and the same wounds per the squad.

 

A full pack of Grey Hunters with Chainswords  and no other upgrades would probably cost about 140 points, extrapolating from what we know about the price of a Tactical Marine.  They might be 150 points if they stick with the Chainsword upgrade being 2 points each.  They'd get a total of 20 attacks in close combat (1 attack each base, +1 extra for the Chainsword special rule); they wouldn't get three attacks each since additional off-hand weapons no longer grant the extra attack.

 

A 5-man squad of Intercessors would be 120 points, so slightly less than the Grey Hunters.  They'd get a total of 10 attacks in close combat (2 attacks each base).

 

So yes, Grey Hunters will make a superior melee unit than Intercessors, but Intercessors aren't designed for that role (see just below), and the Space Wolves already have a plethora of other units that are designed for close combat that will far outperform those Grey Hunters.  

 

What you should really be comparing is how well they'll do their intended job, and here the Intercessors do a little better, as they've got just as many Wounds (10) as the Grey Hunters for 20-30 points less, so they're more points efficient for sitting on and securing Objectives.  They've also got 6" more overall range, and 3" more rapid fire range.  They're putting out less shots overall than the Grey Hunters, so that is a bit of a trade-off.  

 

 

As far as I can tell, these are not melee units at all and meant to sit behind the melee wall and take pot shots. If there was a primaris marine with a chainsword I would be more interested but right now it just seem like a less flexible Tactical/GH squad. They have less weapon options, less melee options,  and limited on weapons.

 

Yes, these aren't melee units at all.  At least from the Primaris units that we've seen so far, only the Captain is.  The others simply haven't been designed to assault.  Hopefully we see a close-combat oriented Primaris unit soon, as I'm sure they'll be quite impressive, but so far the three squads revealed are much more 'tactical' in nature.  The Intercessors and Hellblasters are meant to stand back in cover and on objectives and keep the enemy from taking them, while bringing the pain with their very respectable mid-ranged firepower.  The Inceptors are a highly mobile close support unit that will fill a role in similar fashion to a squadron of attack bikes or land speeders.

 

I like the models, and if someone made custom chainswords that fit on them, I would use the model to replace my GH. OR if GW gave us a melee Primaris Marines that would do too. I am just narrow minded and inexperienced to see how they fit in the melee-centric wolves.

No doubt the Wolves have been traditionally good at melee. We have several units dedicated to it, and even our basic 'tactical' unit is pretty darned good at melee historically. But, that's not to say all of our units need to be melee specialists. Our Long Fangs and other support units aren't particularly. There is a lot of room in a Space Wolves army list for units that aren't too concerned about dominating in close assault. This will be especially true in this edition, where armies like Tyranids and Orks that are dominant in melee are being brought back into balance, and you'll be seeing much more of them on the table-top. If you pick an overabundance of melee specialists in 8th, but find yourself up against a horde army that is bred for it, you're probably in for a tough game.  You need to balance out your unit selections so that you have good flexibility and can go on the offense when it makes sense to, but can go into a sturdy defense when that makes more sense.

 

This is especially true as we don't have any idea of their transports or the SW detachments. I am loving the idea of true-scale marines though, just not seeing how to fit them in. I am not liking the idea that they can't be brought in a Stormwolf transport, or a  Land Raider, and no chapter specific upgrade sprue.

We already have a nice Chapter specific upgrade sprue that you could use with them. Maybe not with the initial Starter Set monopose versions, but certainly with the multi-part kits that will come later. Also, what makes you think that they can't use a Stormwolf or a Land Raider? Of course, we haven't seen the data slates for either of those transports yet, so it could go either way. Just wondering why you assume they can't.

[Valerian]

Whoever said they will fit in just fine is drinking the Kool-Aid double-fisted. A bunch of giants with not a single CCW among them standing in an army of midgets armed to the teeth for CCW are not fitting in!

My close combat units are armed to teeth, as you say, but the vast majority of my Grey Hunters are modeled with just the Bolt Gun and a combat knife at their hip. There is one model per pack with the "hidden" Power Axe, and the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, of course, have their Combi-weapons and special close combat weapons, but otherwise only a handful of the regular Hunters have chainswords actually modeled in a hand. So for my guys, at least, if I put some holstered Bolt Pistols on their hips, Combat Knives and ammo pouches at their waists, then yeah, these guys would fit right in, with the right shoulder pads and a coherent paint job.

EDIT - Example:

Edited May 28, 2017 by Valerian

[Guest]

Whoever said they will fit in just fine is drinking the Kool-Aid double-fisted. A bunch of giants with not a single CCW among them standing in an army of midgets armed to the teeth for CCW are not fitting in!

 

Paint your armies UM Blue and join the walk of shame to Ultramar!!

 

 

I wish GW would have just said

 

"We are replacing our dies that are starting to fade with true-scale size marines. You can still use your old models, but we found this a good a opportune time to upgrade a much demanded feature for older models like Ragnar, and Crimson Fists sprue upgrades. We will eventually be redoing all the chapters in this size. We apologize for those that have spent time and money on the old marines. GW has had a huge demand from our fans to go true-scale and with 8th edition this is a perfect time. If you have concerns contact GW Support, and we will see if there is enough demand to do limited runs, such as our current limited run system. Thank you."

 

"Primaris marines are upgraded marines that you pay X-points to add additional 1 wounds and 1 Attack. There are rules such as ... (can only have 2 primaris squads, can only upgrade tactical/heavy, whatever they want). You do not have to use them in your armies. These marines are marines who show exemplary behavior and have been granted treatement to new organs, which the Emperor has revealed to Guilliman. These organs are similiar to the ones in the Custodes and Thunder Warriors that noone except the Emperor has ever seen. Though Fabius Bile may have a dead Primaris Marine on his table, and a new batch of Chosen Chaos Marines for Abaddon (more info on that tomorrow)."

 

Then simply sell the true-scale marines with upgrade sprues for every chapter. Upgrade sprue have 5 chapter-specific chests/backpacks/weapons, a special helmet for the sergeant. This way the codex-applicable chapters can have their own unique models too.  Eventually move this on to terminators, heavy units, etc etc. Maybe have some grav rhino's and grav land raiders that were custodes-only, now used for primaris-only squads.

 

I find this much more fair. Unique chapters keep their identity, GW sells new models, people get true-scale marines but old marines are still usable. We get a upgraded Marines, and CSM Chosen get fixed to be super-marines like they are supposed to. Not saying I am perfect, but I wouldn't mind being hired at GW to make some decisions. My ego is growing, I will sit down now.

[Guest]

 

I might be the only one , but I am failing to see the use of Primaris Marines. From what I see the Primaris Marines are simply tactical squad with +1 Wound, +1 Attack, and a better gun.  Now if the GH use the same stats as the Tactical Marines, but have the option of using chainswords wouldn't that make the a full 10-man GH squad superior to a 5-man  intercessor squad, at least in melee? The GH would have more attacks (+1 attack from the chainsword + chainsword special rule where it gets an additional attack. So 3 attack from GH+chainsword?) and the same wounds per the squad.

 

A full pack of Grey Hunters with Chainswords  and no other upgrades would probably cost about 140 points, extrapolating from what we know about the price of a Tactical Marine.  They might be 150 points if they stick with the Chainsword upgrade being 2 points each.  They'd get a total of 20 attacks in close combat (1 attack each base, +1 extra for the Chainsword special rule); they wouldn't get three attacks each since additional off-hand weapons no longer grant the extra attack.

 

A 5-man squad of Intercessors would be 120 points, so slightly less than the Grey Hunters.  They'd get a total of 10 attacks in close combat (2 attacks each base).

 

So yes, Grey Hunters will make a superior melee unit than Intercessors, but Intercessors aren't designed for that role (see just below), and the Space Wolves already have a plethora of other units that are designed for close combat that will far outperform those Grey Hunters.  

 

What you should really be comparing is how well they'll do their intended job, and here the Intercessors do a little better, as they've got just as many Wounds (10) as the Grey Hunters for 20-30 points less, so they're more points efficient for sitting on and securing Objectives.  They've also got 6" more overall range, and 3" more rapid fire range.  They're putting out less shots overall than the Grey Hunters, so that is a bit of a trade-off.  

 

 

Do we know the point cost of these units right now? I haven't seen anything so far for either group but I can't follow every development in 8th edition. Primaris could  cost more.

 

 

 

As far as I can tell, these are not melee units at all and meant to sit behind the melee wall and take pot shots. If there was a primaris marine with a chainsword I would be more interested but right now it just seem like a less flexible Tactical/GH squad. They have less weapon options, less melee options,  and limited on weapons.

 

Yes, these aren't melee units at all.  At least from the Primaris units that we've seen so far, only the Captain is.  The others simply haven't been designed to assault.  Hopefully we see a close-combat oriented Primaris unit soon, as I'm sure they'll be quite impressive, but so far the three squads revealed are much more 'tactical' in nature.  The Intercessors and Hellblasters are meant to stand back in cover and on objectives and keep the enemy from taking them, while bringing the pain with their very respectable mid-ranged firepower.  The Inceptors are a highly mobile close support unit that will fill a role in similar fashion to a squadron of attack bikes or land speeders.

 

 

We can only hope they show off something off, but I hope its soon. As of right now I don't plan on using Primaris rules (as of right now) but I want the models for sure.

 

 

 

This is especially true as we don't have any idea of their transports or the SW detachments. I am loving the idea of true-scale marines though, just not seeing how to fit them in. I am not liking the idea that they can't be brought in a Stormwolf transport, or a  Land Raider, and no chapter specific upgrade sprue.

We already have a nice Chapter specific upgrade sprue that you could use with them. Maybe not with the initial Starter Set monopose versions, but certainly with the multi-part kits that will come later. Also, what makes you think that they can't use a Stormwolf or a Land Raider? Of course, we haven't seen the data slates for either of those transports yet, so it could go either way. Just wondering why you assume they can't.

 

 

 

How would the upgrade sprue fit the Primaris Marines. The size differences means chests won't fit, nor melee or range weapons, what sprue would fit somethign that appears 30% larger. Our swords would look like butter knifes, and our axes like hatchets.

 

In the N&R there was posts saying that there is "Primaris specific transports due to their size". If Primaris were simply bulky units then even a Rhino could fit 5 (a full squad) or a Land Raider could fit them. I am trying to find the exact post, but so much Primaris stuff.

[NightHowler]

I think it's way too early to say that SW Primaris marines won't fit in. We've seen all of three kinds. It would be like writing off space wolves after seeing a stock option tactical squad and saying they're not brutal enough.

 

I won't be buying an intercessor squad, and when they release rules and models for SW specific Primaris marines, if they are just intercessors painted grey, then I'll write them off.

 

But to say "all Primaris will never fit into my space wolves" before I know what "all Primaris" actually means would not be wise. If they release a SW Primaris squad of giant berserkers covered in blood wielding dual swords or axe and shields, with skulls hanging off their belts and wicked knotwork on their chest plates, you can bet your family's home I'll be buying more than one squad of that.

 

Just my 2 pennies worth.

[Filius]

Can't wait to see Primaris marines in legion grey (that's the color scheme of my lost company).

 

Hmm … that got me thinking … when exactly does the gathering of the Storm and the "Release" of the Primaris take place? Isn't that somewhere within the last year / last days of the 41st Millennium? How should lost Companies get them, when their are … uhm … lost … ? Don't we have a narrative problem here?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

Can't wait to see Primaris marines in legion grey (that's the color scheme of my lost company).

 

Hmm … that got me thinking … when exactly does the gathering of the Storm and the "Release" of the Primaris take place? Isn't that somewhere within the last year / last days of the 41st Millennium? How should lost Companies get them, when their are … uhm … lost … ? Don't we have a narrative problem here?

 

 

Welcome to Warhammer...narrative problems are more common than lasguns

[Guest]

I'll throw you for another loop. How do Legion of the Damned get Primaris Marines? Especially since its heavily hinted they are the marine souls of Istvaan.

[Filius]

 

 

Can't wait to see Primaris marines in legion grey (that's the color scheme of my lost company).

 

Hmm … that got me thinking … when exactly does the gathering of the Storm and the "Release" of the Primaris take place? Isn't that somewhere within the last year / last days of the 41st Millennium? How should lost Companies get them, when their are … uhm … lost … ? Don't we have a narrative problem here?

 

 

Welcome to Warhammer...narrative problems are more common than lasguns

 

 

Hi-hiiii!

 

I'll throw you for another loop. How do Legion of the Damned get Primaris Marines? Especially since its heavily hinted they are the marine souls of Istvaan.

 

Legion of the Damned get Primaris Marines?

[NightHowler]

My Lost Company has always had Jotun Packs, we just haven't talked about them before or seen them on the table top yet (and if I don't like the rules or models for the SW Primaris, we might never).

 

Their armor and upsized weapons were crafted by our High Priest of Iron right here in our very own Forges.

 

Your fluff is yours. Don't wait for GW to give it to you or you'll end up with their fluff (and you might not like the way it tastes).

[Runefyre]

 

 

Can't wait to see Primaris marines in legion grey (that's the color scheme of my lost company).

Hmm … that got me thinking … when exactly does the gathering of the Storm and the "Release" of the Primaris take place? Isn't that somewhere within the last year / last days of the 41st Millennium? How should lost Companies get them, when their are … uhm … lost … ? Don't we have a narrative problem here?

Maybe lost company isn't clear enough,but basically my company exiled itself from the parent chapter for reasons I won't go into right now. This doesn't mean they're actually "lost", it's more or less a "successor chapter" type relationship. They still operate within the bounds of the imperium and take commands and distress calls just like any other chapter, so I don't really see an issue with guilliman sending my company a small reinforcement contingency of primaris.

[Grimtooth]

I just had a thought that pissed me off;

 

This whole Primaris concept was heavily hinged on existing chapters getting devastated by this latest Chaos crusade. The Wolves are on that high casualty list due to Wrwth of Magnus.

 

So our massive casualties from Wrath of Magnus we're basically a tool to force feed us the crap Primaris fluff.

[Valerian]

I'll throw you for another loop. How do Legion of the Damned get Primaris Marines? Especially since its heavily hinted they are the marine souls of Istvaan.

 

The Legion of the Damned came from the lost Fire Hawks Chapter.  That fluff has been around since at least 2e, if not longer.  It's still a fair point that they shouldn't get access to any Primaris Marines.  However, in the most recent incarnations, you play Legion of the Damned as a specific unit type, rather than as a Chapter of its own, so they wouldn't be combined with Primaris.

[Valerian]

 

 

I might be the only one , but I am failing to see the use of Primaris Marines. From what I see the Primaris Marines are simply tactical squad with +1 Wound, +1 Attack, and a better gun.  Now if the GH use the same stats as the Tactical Marines, but have the option of using chainswords wouldn't that make the a full 10-man GH squad superior to a 5-man  intercessor squad, at least in melee? The GH would have more attacks (+1 attack from the chainsword + chainsword special rule where it gets an additional attack. So 3 attack from GH+chainsword?) and the same wounds per the squad.

 

A full pack of Grey Hunters with Chainswords  and no other upgrades would probably cost about 140 points, extrapolating from what we know about the price of a Tactical Marine.  They might be 150 points if they stick with the Chainsword upgrade being 2 points each.  They'd get a total of 20 attacks in close combat (1 attack each base, +1 extra for the Chainsword special rule); they wouldn't get three attacks each since additional off-hand weapons no longer grant the extra attack.

 

A 5-man squad of Intercessors would be 120 points, so slightly less than the Grey Hunters.  They'd get a total of 10 attacks in close combat (2 attacks each base).

 

So yes, Grey Hunters will make a superior melee unit than Intercessors, but Intercessors aren't designed for that role (see just below), and the Space Wolves already have a plethora of other units that are designed for close combat that will far outperform those Grey Hunters.  

 

What you should really be comparing is how well they'll do their intended job, and here the Intercessors do a little better, as they've got just as many Wounds (10) as the Grey Hunters for 20-30 points less, so they're more points efficient for sitting on and securing Objectives.  They've also got 6" more overall range, and 3" more rapid fire range.  They're putting out less shots overall than the Grey Hunters, so that is a bit of a trade-off.

 

 

Do we know the point cost of these units right now? I haven't seen anything so far for either group but I can't follow every development in 8th edition. Primaris could  cost more.

 

Yes, we have the points costs of the Primaris and their upgrades. You can find the leaked picture in the thread on Primaris in the 8e rumors section.

 

 

 

As far as I can tell, these are not melee units at all and meant to sit behind the melee wall and take pot shots. If there was a primaris marine with a chainsword I would be more interested but right now it just seem like a less flexible Tactical/GH squad. They have less weapon options, less melee options,  and limited on weapons.

 

Yes, these aren't melee units at all.  At least from the Primaris units that we've seen so far, only the Captain is.  The others simply haven't been designed to assault.  Hopefully we see a close-combat oriented Primaris unit soon, as I'm sure they'll be quite impressive, but so far the three squads revealed are much more 'tactical' in nature.  The Intercessors and Hellblasters are meant to stand back in cover and on objectives and keep the enemy from taking them, while bringing the pain with their very respectable mid-ranged firepower.  The Inceptors are a highly mobile close support unit that will fill a role in similar fashion to a squadron of attack bikes or land speeders.

 

 

We can only hope they show off something off, but I hope its soon. As of right now I don't plan on using Primaris rules (as of right now) but I want the models for sure.

 

 

 

This is especially true as we don't have any idea of their transports or the SW detachments. I am loving the idea of true-scale marines though, just not seeing how to fit them in. I am not liking the idea that they can't be brought in a Stormwolf transport, or a  Land Raider, and no chapter specific upgrade sprue.

We already have a nice Chapter specific upgrade sprue that you could use with them. Maybe not with the initial Starter Set monopose versions, but certainly with the multi-part kits that will come later. Also, what makes you think that they can't use a Stormwolf or a Land Raider? Of course, we haven't seen the data slates for either of those transports yet, so it could go either way. Just wondering why you assume they can't.

 

 

 

How would the upgrade sprue fit the Primaris Marines. The size differences means chests won't fit, nor melee or range weapons, what sprue would fit somethign that appears 30% larger. Our swords would look like butter knifes, and our axes like hatchets.

 

In the N&R there was posts saying that there is "Primaris specific transports due to their size". If Primaris were simply bulky units then even a Rhino could fit 5 (a full squad) or a Land Raider could fit them. I am trying to find the exact post, but so much Primaris stuff.

 

The upgrade pack should fit fine with every part except the torso with the wolf pelt. Everything else will work, as they've already told us that heads and shoulder pads are interchangeable, and the frost axe and frost sword are large enough on the sprue that they shouldn't look out of place either.

[Grimtooth]

The frost axe and sword will look undersized. I think the axes and swords from the Wulfen pack will probably be a better fit.

[Runefyre]

The frost axe and sword will look undersized. I think the axes and swords from the Wulfen pack will probably be a better fit.

The axe might look undersized, but I've always felt like the frost sword is a 'tad too big.

 

I think it "should" scale nicely, but obviously we'll have to wait and see. Will have to pick up another box of wulfen though, as I will definitely want to convert some primaris with the double-handed frost axes.

[MaveriK]

You know I would feel so much better if for some reason GW gave us MK9 or MK8 torso and leg upgrades for all the chapters. But sadly I have a feeling the only marine sets GW will produce from now on will be these giants (beautiful but somewhat takes away/almost invalidates the once norm with decades worth of regular sized plastics). Similar to how AOS doesn't produce regular empire stuff and only newer troops for stormcast.

[MaveriK]

Also I realize that Chaos Marines wouldn't get these giants right away but honestly what does that say about Fabius Bile? If anything the guy would be like if some tech priest can do better why can't I? Time to step it up buddy!

[Leif Bearclaw]

Also I realize that Chaos Marines wouldn't get these giants right away but honestly what does that say about Fabius Bile? If anything the guy would be like if some tech priest can do better why can't I? Time to step it up buddy!

Hopefully, once they've done the 4 cult Legions, GW will deal with Fabius with a general 'CSM' release. That said, while Chaos getting some kind of bigger 'NuMarine' is fine, I just hope they aren't traitor Primaris. Let Bile's creature be something novel, gribbly and funky, rather than 'Imperial thing, but spiky'.

[Guest]

 

 

I'll throw you for another loop. How do Legion of the Damned get Primaris Marines? Especially since its heavily hinted they are the marine souls of Istvaan.

The Legion of the Damned came from the lost Fire Hawks Chapter. That fluff has been around since at least 2e, if not longer. It's still a fair point that they shouldn't get access to any Primaris Marines. However, in the most recent incarnations, you play Legion of the Damned as a specific unit type, rather than as a Chapter of its own, so they wouldn't be combined with Primaris.

In hunt for the truth it is mentioned that they may be made up of the spirits of marines that stayed faithful. Istvaan being a mass source of these marines. It would also explain how somr saw different legion markings on the legion of the damned. Additionaly it would explain the huge figure that appeared on the IF ship that nodded t the IF captain in fall of cadia, being none other than Ferrus Manus

[Wispy]

Ramses being Ramses.

[Valerian]

 

 

I'll throw you for another loop. How do Legion of the Damned get Primaris Marines? Especially since its heavily hinted they are the marine souls of Istvaan.

The Legion of the Damned came from the lost Fire Hawks Chapter. That fluff has been around since at least 2e, if not longer. It's still a fair point that they shouldn't get access to any Primaris Marines. However, in the most recent incarnations, you play Legion of the Damned as a specific unit type, rather than as a Chapter of its own, so they wouldn't be combined with Primaris.

In hunt for the truth it is mentioned that they may be made up of the spirits of marines that stayed faithful. Istvaan being a mass source of these marines. It would also explain how somr saw different legion markings on the legion of the damned. Additionaly it would explain the huge figure that appeared on the IF ship that nodded t the IF captain in fall of cadia, being none other than Ferrus Manus

 

 

It's off topic here, but if they retcon the Legion of the Damned background information that has been set for over 25 years, I'm going to be :cussing ticked. 

[Grimtooth]

Also I realize that Chaos Marines wouldn't get these giants right away but honestly what does that say about Fabius Bile? If anything the guy would be like if some tech priest can do better why can't I? Time to step it up buddy!

Just a matter of time before Fabius gets his hands on a Primaris corpse to start working on, but I digress. The data sheets that we have seen of Rubric and Plague Marines look to be fairly balanced in my opinion with what we have seen from Primaris units so far.

[Filius]

Bad News in that Direction … the Blood Angels seem really suffer a miserable Fate – close to a retcon: After being nearly completly omnomnomed by the Tyranids, they are saved by Guilliman and Khorne … I really don't want to extrapolate from that on …

 

Edit: Typo.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Filius

[MaveriK]

Not sure how I feel about that new primaris dreadnought. It looks like it skipped leg day...