WH40K game Strike Force Agastus

[Nagashsnee]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I understand that, but the stubbers on the Marine vehicles aren't the regular variants.

 

They are more sophisticated versions with some unique traits.

 

Either way, from a visual perspective they look a lot better to me - based around light machine guns or similar anti-infantry weapons you might find above the turret of a tank.

 

 

GW comes up with new guns/names for primaris on a almost release by release basis, They could have called them ANYTHING else and the problem would not exist.

 

But if it looks like a stubber, and shoots like a stubber, and you call it a stubber...its a bloody stubber mate. And its not just pintles, they are poping up more and more, the dread being the latest victim. 

 

Multi lasers would make more sense, and make the ammunition requirements of some of the primaris tanks less bonkers if you had to go with a existing weapon. 

[Lord_Ikka]

3 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

Multi lasers would make more sense, and make the ammunition requirements of some of the primaris tanks less bonkers if you had to go with a existing weapon. 

You mean you don't like the idea of a Repulsor having to have enough rounds to supply: 1 heavy onslaught gatling cannon, 2 ironhail heavy stubbers (1 icarus), 2 krakstorm grenade launchers, 2 storm bolters, a twin heavy bolter, and auto launchers? That's if you don't replace a ironhail stubber with a regular onslaught gatling cannon (with presumably a different caliber of ammunition than the heavy variant), replace the icarus ironhail stubber with either a fragstorm grenade launcher or icarus rocket pod, and then add on another ironhail heavy stubber. So what- 8 different types of ammunition if you get all the upgrades and make them different?

[Azaiel]

A review of the rules by Ash at GMG:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBt7sVxZoBA

[DesuVult]

I think I know my issue with it's look.  It's trying too hard to look realistic and comes off goofy instead.  It's 2 M2 HBs pulled off their M4 pintle mounts and strapped together.  What GW could have done is something like a full rack of them.  8 in a 4x4 side by side setup like the M1910 maxim anti-air setup or hurricane bolters.  Also probably recess them some.

[Captain Idaho]

People don't like Stubbers because they don't fit the aesthetic of Space Marines. It's not any more complicated than that.

 

GW themed the factions with weapons long, long ago. Shuriken were Eldar, Splinter were Dark Eldar, Las was Imperial Guard, Bolters were Marines, Gauss were Necrons...

 

Reinventing the wheel is unnecessary and clumsy. It is out of place and looks it.

[Nagashsnee]

17 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

You mean you don't like the idea of a Repulsor having to have enough rounds to supply: 1 heavy onslaught gatling cannon, 2 ironhail heavy stubbers (1 icarus), 2 krakstorm grenade launchers, 2 storm bolters, a twin heavy bolter, and auto launchers? That's if you don't replace a ironhail stubber with a regular onslaught gatling cannon (with presumably a different caliber of ammunition than the heavy variant), replace the icarus ironhail stubber with either a fragstorm grenade launcher or icarus rocket pod, and then add on another ironhail heavy stubber. So what- 8 different types of ammunition if you get all the upgrades and make them different?

When you type it out like that it makes it sound downright stupid. 

 

But hey at least its not also a transport right?

[Sergeant Centurion]

I dont like stubbers on my Primaris (Marines in general) so i made this: long barrel auto boltgun MK2.
I can understand people like them and i really respect them, but i can´t enjoy the look of it. Ironhails can be more efficients than standar machineguns, but dont appeals to me like 2 mini rockets shot it at once with high fire rate and noise. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Sargeant Centurion

[Orange Knight]

20 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

People don't like Stubbers because they don't fit the aesthetic of Space Marines. It's not any more complicated than that.

 

GW themed the factions with weapons long, long ago. Shuriken were Eldar, Splinter were Dark Eldar, Las was Imperial Guard, Bolters were Marines, Gauss were Necrons...

 

Reinventing the wheel is unnecessary and clumsy. It is out of place and looks it.

 

I disagree with this. I think Marines have used all sorts of weapons with varying aesthetics that looks pretty different. And if you look back ok 30k there is even more variety.

 

A long range anti infantry weapon that lands between a bolter and a heavy bolter is perfectly reasonable. 

[Nagashsnee]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I disagree with this. I think Marines have used all sorts of weapons with varying aesthetics that looks pretty different. And if you look back ok 30k there is even more variety.

 

A long range anti infantry weapon that lands between a bolter and a heavy bolter is perfectly reasonable. 

Yes and no one is arguing against that...just not that specific gun. 

 

Funny you should mention 30k and despite having a ton more variety you what marines dont have access too....the stubber.

 

They did get a rotor cannon tho and no one said nothing. 

[DesuVult]

I don't have an issue with the idea of using stubbers.  I just think in execution they keep looking terrible.  

[Orange Knight]

4 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

I don't have an issue with the idea of using stubbers.  I just think in execution they keep looking terrible.  

 

They look a lot better than pintle storm bolters. 

 

I wonder if an Onslaught Gatling Cannon on top would have looked better....

[Captain Idaho]

Many people have the opinion of the reverse; bolters and Storm bolters look better than Stubbers.

 

And what's the main weapon Marines have access to in the Heresy? It's bolters. Other weapons are the exception. Looking at pintle mounted weapons on vehicles and how many are bolters?

 

Stubbers are a new and unnecessary change to the aesthetic of Marines. New Primaris era Dreadnoughts even use Storm Bolters and Heavy Bolters (now with the Brutalis) mounted in their hulls.

 

Some might like them, but there's no denying the change in aesthetic and theme is there. You might like those changes and that's great. There are plenty of folk who don't.

[Orange Knight]

3 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Having Space Marines, arguably the most elite of the Imperium's standard forces, using such a low-tech weapon is close to demeaning. 

 

I just saw this. You do realise they use the Rhino? The most low tech vehicle that anyone with a Hammer and wrench can repair just by hitting it a few times.

 

I made this point when the Repulsors and Impulsors were introduced. Finally the elite warriors of humanity have vehicles that stand apart from the rest, using expensive and sophisticated gravitic technologies courtesy of the Mechanicus.

 

But no, people wanted the low-tech Rhinos apparently? Lol which is it?

 

@Captain Idaho

 

Marines in the Heresy can directly use vehicles like the Malcador that can be equipped with Stubbers.

 

In fact 30k is what originally gave Astartes access to stubbers. It has been this way for around 10/15 years or so now.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Orange Knight]

Lol I'm assuming that now that I've clarified how Astartes stubbers were actually established in 30k, as part of the Heresy "Firstborn" arsenal, people will complain about them less?

[Lord_Ikka]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I just saw this. You do realise they use the Rhino? The most low tech vehicle that anyone with a Hammer and wrench can repair just by hitting it a few times.

 

I made this point when the Repulsors and Impulsors were introduced. Finally the elite warrior of humanity have vehicles that stand apart from the rest, using expensive and sophisticated gravitic technologies courtesy of the Mechanicus.

 

But no, people wanted the low grade Rhinos apparently? Lol which is it?

Going to go off of lore, but the Rhino (while not the most technically advance transport, to be true) is only issued to the elite of the Imperium- Astartes, Sororitas, and the Arbites. That's really not here or there in regards to why people don't like SM with stubbers- the common preconception is that a stubber is barely above current real-world tech, it is a chemical propellant, simple bullet firearm. In comparison to a bolter of any kind, that fires mass-reactive micro rockets, a stubber is low-tech. This has been reinforced by stub weapons being used historically by three groups (in lore and in-game before HH gave SM the ability to take some stubber-armed vehicles)-

 

IG in the form of heavy stubbers as pintle-mounts, vehicle anti-infantry secondary weapons, and by Krieg heavy weapon teams (and Gaunt's Ghosts in lore use a lot of .30/50 cal stubber-style weapons)

GSC get heavy stubbers, which has been explained by the lore that their military hardware looted/stolen from PDF forces

Necromunda gangers- have both the pistol version in stub guns and heavy stubbers, all described as basically the lowest-grade firearms you can get but that are easy to build/get ammo for

 

So it is understandable that people would be dismissive of SM having stubbers, because why would genetically enhanced transhumans wearing power armor  be using weapons that a two-bit hive ganger would, instead of some sort of more appropriate weapon? 

 

LIke I said before, I'm ambivalent to the stubbers in-game and for the most part don't mind how they look on Primaris vehicles. Just with the Brutalis it looks really awkward and weirdly top-heavy.

[Orange Knight]

Because they used them when they were far more enlightened and technologically advanced during the Great Crusade?

[DesuVult]

26 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I just saw this. You do realise they use the Rhino? The most low tech vehicle that anyone with a Hammer and wrench can repair just by hitting it a few times.

 

I made this point when the Repulsors and Impulsors were introduced. Finally the elite warriors of humanity have vehicles that stand apart from the rest, using expensive and sophisticated gravitic technologies courtesy of the Mechanicus.

 

But no, people wanted the low-tech Rhinos apparently? Lol which is it?

 

@Captain Idaho

 

Marines in the Heresy can directly use vehicles like the Malcador that can be equipped with Stubbers.

 

In fact 30k is what originally gave Astartes access to stubbers. It has been this way for around 10/15 years or so now.

Other vehicles like the chimera are most low tech.  Rhino is rugged. Impulsor is less rugged.

[Orange Knight]

1 minute ago, DesuVult said:

Other vehicles like the chimera are most low tech.  Rhino is rugged. Impulsor is less rugged.

 

But it's more capable and high tech? It's armour and resistance is the same.

 

It's probably much harder to maintain, but wouldn't you say that effort is justified when arming the elite Astartes?

[Captain Idaho]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Lol I'm assuming that now that I've clarified how Astartes stubbers were actually established in 30k, as part of the Heresy "Firstborn" arsenal, people will complain about them less?

 

Exceptions and additions to a theme don't mean the whole theme is a wash. You named a single vehicle that isn't even in the Astartes book.

 

Talk about theme and how many Marines vehicles in the HH have Stubbers? Compared to how many don't? Do the Dreadnoughts use Stubbers?

 

This forum was established as a Marines dedicated forum. It's named after a theme of the recognisable weapons of Space Marines...

[Brother Captain Arkley]

Well I managed to stick to my plan got 1 set instead of 3.

 

 

[Halandaar]

Do you guys (including a mod I might add) want to take your discussion about the lore of stubbers somewhere where it isn't completely derailing the thread?

[Orange Knight]

8 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Exceptions and additions to a theme don't mean the whole theme is a wash. You named a single vehicle that isn't even in the Astartes book.

 

Talk about theme and how many Marines vehicles in the HH have Stubbers? Compared to how many don't? Do the Dreadnoughts use Stubbers?

 

This forum was established as a Marines dedicated forum. It's named after a theme of the recognisable weapons of Space Marines...

 

At this point we are just moving goal posts or arguing semantics.

 

You say Stubbers don't belong on Astartes vehicles. Sure, I agree that they generally have not been seen on most Astartes vehicles or units.

 

Just like Gatling guns and Volkites haven't been seen on most infantry, but they do exist. Grav didn't exist before 6th edition.

 

Stubbers have been a part of the Horus Heresy arsenal for a while, in a limited way. Now, in 40k, stubbers are used on some vehicles. The unique Stubber variants that Primaris vehicles have are,  at this point, an established piece of wargear for the last 5 years.

 

This Brutalis Dreadnought is simply continuing a trend that has been cemented over 5 years, and has roots a decade earlier in the Horus Heresy game.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Cleon]

Considering they went to the effort of inventing multiple types of heavy bolter for the various weapon load outs of the heavy Intercessor, it is just a shame they don't re use them by making them available as the vehicle auxiliary weapons instead of stubbers (or as an alternate option) it'd make the primaris seem a bit more joined up if weapons were re-used more often. 

[Khornestar]

I wish they had more 360 views of the desolation squad. Go figure they have two for the heavy intercessors. XD

 

Wanted to see a 360 of the fist variant dread as well. 2bad4me. 

[Toxichobbit]

I don't know about other countries, but in the UK it's still widely available 3 hours after release. Which is fantastic, because  you scalpers