The Castigators

[Tyrannicide]

Shame about the irritating draw. Those Castigators obviously were Alpha Legionnaires in disguise. :P

 

Now with regards to what I'd like to see more of from you. I know your generally looking for more ideas on fluff, but I'd like to see some more progress on your Castigators force. (And tell Tiberius to get his arse in gear too, I want more Space Shark lovin! :geek:) But speaking of more background, I would personally find some pleasure in reading more of Machinery of Hate and the notable campaigns the Chapter has taken part in.

[Commissar Molotov]

Shame about the irritating draw. Those Castigators obviously were Alpha Legionnaires in disguise. ;)

 

Hah, nice! Yes, that's exactly what happened... :whistling: I've already decided I'm not going to be one of those people that write fluff about their gameplay exploits. Mainly because the Castigators on the tabletop suck hard, and the ones in the fluff... don't! :P

 

Now with regards to what I'd like to see more of from you. I know your generally looking for more ideas on fluff, but I'd like to see some more progress on your Castigators force. (And tell Tiberius to get his arse in gear too, I want more Space Shark lovin! :D) But speaking of more background, I would personally find some pleasure in reading more of Machinery of Hate and the notable campaigns the Chapter has taken part in.

 

Machinery of Hate has been stymied for a while, though I have some ideas. Eventually it'll see the light of day. Probably when I'm back at university.

 

As for notable campaigns, I've been working on a timeline, and I'll neaten it up a bit and post it in here.

[Race Bannon]

I must have missed it. I did not know the Castigators used the Dark Angels Codex. I used C:DA for my chapter as well for several months after it's release. I stopped using it because I just couldn't get away from using DA nomenclature so my Chapter just wasn't "mine".

 

Anyways, keep up the great work! I love the time line btw. I'm thinking of making one myself. :whistling:

[Commissar Molotov]

I've been using the Dark Angels codex because it's closest to the Codex Astartes, currently. In third I tried where possible to use fives and tens - my Terminators were always five-man with one heavy weapon, just because that's how they were in Space Hulk. I'm going to investigate moving to the Marine Codex when it's released. As for the Dark Angels nomenclature, it doesn't bother me. It's easy, really. I know you used to use the Space Wolves Codex, and that's a sight trickier - my old Martyrs of Elysius used the Space Wolves 13th Company list - now there was a pickle, where I had to rename basically every item in the wargear list!

[Hasoroth]

Liber isn't the place for Armylist discussion, but that said:

 

In a 500 point battle, the Dark Angels are seriously handicapped. I would suggest switching over to the Vanilla Codex if you want to win games. The second option would be to lose the Chaplain, and the Whirlwind, and add in more Tactical Marines, Rites of Battle, and dirt Cheap Devastators, Heavy Bolters and/or Missile Launchers. This should give you enough bodies to sustain a march forward, and enough bite to hurt when you get there.

[Commissar Molotov]

This timeline has been removed, further edits later in the thread! Edited December 14, 2008 by Commissar Molotov

[Ferrus Manus]

Wow, Mol the timeline looks much better than the version I have. I like it. So what were they doing during the Age of Apostasy?

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, I'm not happy with it at the moment. I'm going to continue to expand the timeline and detail the various actions. But I could easily write "Castigators win, Castigators win, Castigators win." - but I'm looking to see how these actions portray the Castigators - to see how they interact with the various themes that are bound up within the Castigators.

 

Of course, some of the actions are there purely because they've been mentioned elsewhere and I'm trying to keep things accurate. But I'm still keen to make this something worthwhile.

 

As to the Age of Apostasy, I'm not sure. Most of the Astartes kept neutral until after Dorn and the Confederation of Light appeared. And I certainly wouldn't want to trample upon the four Chapters that assaulted Terra. I would imagine during the Reign of Blood, the Castigators would've concentrated on internal defence - ensuring Losanco was secure and preventing the manyfold aliens and heretics from capitalising upon the calamitous state the Imperium found itself in. Of course, after the collapse of Vandire's reign, the Castigators would've been keen to purge those loyal to him. The upshot of the new regime after Vandire would be the creation of the Ordo Hereticus, who would naturally align with the Castigators. (Though not that closely, because the Ordo didn't have an Order Militant until the Convocation of Nephilim.)

[Ferrus Manus]

As to the Age of Apostasy, I'm not sure. Most of the Astartes kept neutral until after Dorn and the Confederation of Light appeared.

Do you mean Thor, instead of Dorn?

 

I would imagine during the Reign of Blood, the Castigators would've concentrated on internal defence - ensuring Losanco was secure and preventing the manyfold aliens and heretics from capitalising upon the calamitous state the Imperium found itself in. Of course, after the collapse of Vandire's reign, the Castigators would've been keen to purge those loyal to him. The upshot of the new regime after Vandire would be the creation of the Ordo Hereticus, who would naturally align with the Castigators.

Sounds good, I thought that possibly, for unknown reasons, that the mutants of Losanco could have made a co-ordinated (or as co-ordinated as mutants can get) attack on the dark-siders? Possibly to bring the wider conflict home. Just an idea.

[Commissar Molotov]

Do you mean Thor, instead of Dorn?

 

Yeah, I think I was thinking about Confessor Dolan and Sebastian Thor at the same time and they sort of merged into Dorn.

 

 

I would imagine during the Reign of Blood, the Castigators would've concentrated on internal defence - ensuring Losanco was secure and preventing the manyfold aliens and heretics from capitalising upon the calamitous state the Imperium found itself in. Of course, after the collapse of Vandire's reign, the Castigators would've been keen to purge those loyal to him. The upshot of the new regime after Vandire would be the creation of the Ordo Hereticus, who would naturally align with the Castigators.

Sounds good, I thought that possibly, for unknown reasons, that the mutants of Losanco could have made a co-ordinated (or as co-ordinated as mutants can get) attack on the dark-siders? Possibly to bring the wider conflict home. Just an idea.

 

Interesting idea. Very nice way of tying it in. Of course, the mutants would have no way of knowing about Vandire, but coincidences are wonderful things.

[Nash Trickster]

It's been hampered by the fact that I can't reliably and accurately date the Fourteenth Founding.

Don't forget that the Imperial dating system is mainly used for the Administratum's purposes and not necessarily for other purposes.

 

You can thus use a "trick" to give dates for events pre-dating the Age of Apostasy without having to give actual Imperial dates. You simply have to place the timeline 'in universe' and pretend the writer of the timeline couldn't find any "reliable" document prior to the Age of Apostasy. In particular, no document using Imperial datation which stated the actual date of the Castigator's founding.

 

Thus, you could precede the timeline by something along the lines of:

"The Castigators have always used a personnal dating system in their Annals. They note dates according to the day of their Founding [*]. However, because they always recorded these events in relative time, not taking into account the time discrepancies inherent to Warp travel, Imperial Scholars such as myself have been unable to correlate the exact dates until reliable external sources of reference could be found. The oldest such source dates back to the Castigator's fight alongside the Thorian forces at the end of the Reign of Blood... The following timeline therefore uses the Castigator's own method of datation, only giving the Imperial equivalent when possible. --Cassius Nary

Edited August 9, 2008 by Nash Trickster

[Commissar Molotov]

It's been hampered by the fact that I can't reliably and accurately date the Fourteenth Founding.

Don't forget that the Imperial dating system is mainly used for the Administratum's purposes and not necessarily for other purposes.

 

You can thus use a "trick" to give dates for events pre-dating the Age of Apostasy without having to give actual Imperial dates. You simply have to place the timeline 'in universe' and pretend the writer of the timeline couldn't find any "reliable" document prior to the Age of Apostasy. In particular, no document using Imperial datation which stated the actual date of the Castigator's founding.

 

Thus, you could precede the timeline by something along the lines of:

"The Castigators have always used a personnal dating system in their Annals. They note dates according to the day of their Founding [*]. However, because they always recorded these events in relative time, not taking into account the time discrepancies inherent to Warp travel, Imperial Scholars such as myself have been unable to correlate the exact dates until reliable external sources of reference could be found. The oldest such source dates back to the Castigator's fight alongside the Thorian forces at the end of the Reign of Blood... The following timeline therefore uses the Castigator's own method of datation, only giving the Imperial equivalent when possible. --Cassius Nary

[krieger haggoroth]

For some reason, the blurb about the Ryssith stood out to me more than anything else. I'd certainly like to see them detailed a little bit more. And what with a few survivors, I'd imagine the castigators are still attempting to completely eradicate them?

[Commissar Molotov]

The Ryssith are a fun little bunch. :P

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/Ryssithfullbody.jpg

 

I like the idea of the Castigators crushing a large (but pretty much benevolent) alien empire. It helps reinforce the idea of just what Space Marines are - hardened killers working to ensure a facist regime remains in place. It's glorious. And of course they were the downfall of Baraquiel. Haven't quite worked out just how that happened. I do like the idea that the Ryssith have never fully recovered - perhaps not even six thousand years hence. They're a minor annoyance at best - the odd Ordo Xenos Inquisitor might track down a Nest-World and eliminate it, but they're nothing like what they were. This is all coming off the top of my head, so it might not make complete sense.

 

I imagine if the Castigators got a chance they'd gladly help finish off the job that Baraquiel started. As it is, they've got so many other priorities in a galaxy of unceasing war. :)

 

(

[krieger haggoroth]

Thats a freaking awesome pic, Mol. Maybe its my odd love of all things bipedal-lizard like. When you get the webpage up, I'd eventually love to see big expansion with these guys, maybe even a full section. Normally i don't go for the whole invented xenos species thing, but the guys have the look and feel (at least so far) down pat and I'm certainly enjoying them.

 

Am I being too forgiving today? :P

[Commissar Molotov]

Yeah, you can thank Tiberius for that. As to the Ryssith, sure. When I get Castigators.com up again, I'll definitely add a page on them (even if it's to keep you happy. :P) And whilst I'm not always a fan of invented alien races either, it's sometimes incredibly short-sighted to pretend that Orks, Eldar, Necrons, Tau and Tyranids are the only races Space Marines would fight. the Tau Empire really sparked things off when they started detailing minor races such as the Kroot, Vespid, Nicassar and Demiurg. Now with the new 5th Edition rulebook....

 

A threat growing in strength is that of the rapidly rising younger races. Worlds that once trembled before Imperial wrath are casting off their shackles and looking to carve their own empires among the stars. The Draxian Hegemony, the Tau Empire, the Worldweave of the Noisome Reek, the Uluméathic League, the Church of Dracolith - the list goes on. Individually these upstarts cannot hope to challenge humanity's dominance, but if their encroachments are taken as a whole, tthen their containment promises to drain valuable military resources.

 

... it just confirms the threat that xenos races pose to the Imperium.

 

So I can see both angles. I think newly-created alien races have to fit in well and not detract from the mythos of the 40k universe.

 

 

 

Leaving aside discussion of Xenos (from that angle, at least) - I did have an idea that the skeletons of certain Ryssith Warleaders might be displayed in the Sanctuary. Or perhaps something made from the bones of Ryssith. I'm not sure. Perhaps something to do with Baraquiel's burial rites. I'll have to ponder that concept for a while. It'll come to me eventually, I think. (Suggestions welcome, as always).

[krieger haggoroth]

Well, seeing as they appear reptilian, what about their skins or hides on display? Perhaps the skin is used to bind sacred books are as part of some chapter reward. Just a couple of ideas on that.

 

 

Perhaps I'm just not seeing it (skimming causes that from time to time :)) but what about a defeat or two put into the timeline, other than "such and such killed in battle". I think defeats tell as much about a chapter as their victories. Again, maybe I'm' just not spotting it :P

[Tyrannicide]

Well, seeing as they appear reptilian, what about their skins or hides on display? Perhaps the skin is used to bind sacred books are as part of some chapter reward. Just a couple of ideas on that.

 

That is a wonderful idea, krieger. Good thinking, what do you think of it Mol?

Edited August 11, 2008 by Darth Potato

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, seeing as they appear reptilian, what about their skins or hides on display? Perhaps the skin is used to bind sacred books are as part of some chapter reward. Just a couple of ideas on that.

 

I'll have to think about that. Good idea, though.

 

Perhaps I'm just not seeing it (skimming causes that from time to time :)) but what about a defeat or two put into the timeline, other than "such and such killed in battle". I think defeats tell as much about a chapter as their victories. Again, maybe I'm' just not spotting it :P

 

Heh, well I said a couple of posts up that I don't just want it to be "Castigators win!" time and again. But then again, I think it'd be rare for Marines to lose - they don't fight fair - they applying overwhelming force to the weakest part of the enemy army and crush it in a lightning assault. They stack their odds in their favour so much that... well, it's difficult. Plus, I think that if you can back Marines into a corner, they'd annihilate the armies sent against them. It's tricky, then - I think alien races and traitor Marines are the best opponents to crush Marines - and most of my timeline entries are against heretics.

 

With that said, there are some defeats:

 

-> The loss of Laertes at Krjigsmal was meant to be a defeat, the deceased Captain found by the Company that arrived to support the 4th. I'll rework it to make it more of a 'loss'.

-> The Truth War of M37 is going to be worked on to be a terrible time for the Castigators - a time when they were nearly excommunicated by the Inquisition. With the attendant death of Lycidius, the Hero-Captain, it's meant to be a real low point for the Chapter.

-> The Discerpo Campaign (698.M41) is going to be an Imperial loss, with the Castigators fighting to allow the Imperial Guard to retreat from Valst.

-> 973.M41 has the Castigators being pushed off Syrrios by the Swordwind of Biel-Tan.

-> The War of Woe (987.M41) is going to be an Imperial Victory, but at huge cost to the Castigators - a pyrrhic victory in every sense of the word. The War of Woe is eventually going to feature in an Imperial Armour-styled 'campaign book' co-authored by Tiberius and myself.

 

 

And there's a great many of "such-and-such dies" where I could make them into defeats. The thing of course is to make those defeats mean something, or have a great effect, or they don't add anything to the Castigators. I don't want to mention every single war they've ever been in since their creation, but rather to mention significant events (or just things I've mentioned elsewhere in the Castigator project.)

 

With that said, if you have ideas for events/happenstances/opponents, let me know and I'll see what I can draw up.

[Nash Trickster]

I guess I've always figured that the Scholars would know the date of the fourteenth founding, even if we don't, as yet.

And they probably do... However, I doubt that all the chapters of a given founding would be created at the same time...

 

I've always imagined it more like this: the High Lords declare a new founding, the Ad Mech starts working on the geneseed, the first chapter is created, then others are created until the High Lords declare the founding "closed"... (As far as we know, the 26th Founding may very well still be "open"in 999M41!)

 

The date of the Founding itself may be the one on which the High Lords ordered it, in which case the first chapter of that Founding would probably have been created a few years after the Founding's date...

Or it may be the day on which the first chapter was actually created, in which case the last chapter of the same founding may have been created only decades (if not centuries) afterwards...

Either way, the date of any given chapter's creation would probably not be the same as their Founding's.

 

If (even part of) the Castigators' founding records were lost, then the Scholars may only know that they are 14th founding and thus were created sometime in late M34/early M35, but have no idea as to the exact date of their creation. Thus, adding in the discrepancies implied by Warp travel, the Scholars would lack any reference point to calculate the Imperial dates without a margin of error that would span centuries!

A date which could be very precise in the Castigator's records ("On the 312th day of the 225th year...") could only be given a very unprecise Imperial equivalent ("sometime between 300M35 and 800M35")

 

This way, If GW ever decides to give us the date for the 14th Founding (something I doubt) your fluff will still fit without having to modify it (or not much) ;)

 

=====

 

Just a thought about Laertes in his Dread form: since he "died" without fulfilling his mourning vow, he could have refused to be repainted in the Castigators' colors and remain black to this day... Or, at least, kept part of his metal body painted in the mourning black as a symbol of his "failure". (I know it has more to do with pure modelling than fluff itself, but the fact that Laertes was the first owner of the Blade of Thorn make me imagine the dreadnought being covered with thorny vines motifs...)

 

OOT:

I'm always up for supporting your endeavours (remember the seven sins?)

How could I forget? They are always on the back of my mind. The gestation of that project has been a long one, and will probably be longer still, but one day this will give birth to a monster... ;)

In fact, some of the chapters which were born out of that project have seen a bit of devellopment. Two of them at least, the first has a pretty detailled synopsis of some of its most recent history (some actions which took place after they swore their penitent vows) and the other's homeworld culture has been penned out in quite a bit of detail... Even if what their original sins actually are is still a "mystery", but the name of the sin itself of course.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Nash Trickster

[Commissar Molotov]

Just a thought about Laertes in his Dread form: since he "died" without fulfilling his mourning vow, he could have refused to be repainted in the Castigators' colors and remain black to this day... Or, at least, kept part of his metal body painted in the mourning black as a symbol of his "failure". (I know it has more to do with pure modelling than fluff itself, but the fact that Laertes was the first owner of the Blade of Thorn make me imagine the dreadnought being covered with thorny vines motifs...)

 

Well, Laertes is the Venerable Dreadnought in Fabricator-General's 4th Company army. You can see a picture of him here. I believe Fab-Gen and I did discuss having him remain in black armour so as to honour Baraquiel. If not totally black, then partially so.

 

With regards to the "thorny vine motifs", that reminds me somewhat of the Biel-Tan Craftworld, so I'd personally avoid that. Though Laertes (and all the subsequent Captains of the 4th) would use the Blade of Thorns as their heraldry. Hopefully Fab-Gen will spot this and chime in. :D

[Commissar Molotov]

A new issue has surfaced in my latest work on the Castigators' timeline.

 

746.M41: The Hellstar Purge: Captain Sirius is appointed as the new Captain of the Third Company. A firebrand and a zealot, Sirius leads his Company on a campaign to avenge the grievious losses sustained by the Ultramarines at Macragge a year earlier.

 

We know that the Imperium prosecuted the Damocles Crusade against the Tau - but were forced to cut it short due to the depredations of Hive Fleet Behemoth - which eventually assailed Macragge.

 

The Hellstorm Purge was meant to be a cool was of the Castigators honouring the Ultramarines - a reaction of sort to the way in which the Ultramarines are universally hated throughout the DIY - and forum - community. But further reading shows that the Imperium didn't contact any Tyranids (save from perhaps genestealers) between Behemoth and Kraken - that some within the Imperium considered that the Tyranids were extinct, wiped out by the Ultramarines.

 

So I'm somewhat at a loss as to what to do; Make the Purge occur in 993.M41, after Kraken? I'm not sure about the 'delayed vengeance' angle, especially given that the Ultramarines aren't the only ones to truly suffer against Kraken. Plus, the fact that the Imperium fought alongside Craftworld Iyanden isn't something that'd sit well with the Castigators. One of the other options is to make the Purge a generally Xenocidal one. This option is cool, showing the Castigators lashing out in anger at whatever aliens are nearby. But it doesn't have that tangible link to Behemoth.

 

So I'm somewhat lost. Those with a grip on the latest Tyranid codices might be able to help further.

[Hasoroth]

To throw out some of my ideas I talked with Mol about:

 

Leviathan: I personally assume that the worst of Leviathan has been staved off, but they are still part of the current continuum as Moltov points out to me which means that they are definitely still targets ripe for a genocidal purge. Combined with the fact that this is the only Hive Fleet to get within "start worrying" range of Terra, it makes a very valid target.

 

Material Assistance: Even if the Castigator's weren't at the actual battle of Maccrage, whose to say they couldn't have given assistance in the form of resources to the Ultramarines, to help them. Although the Ultramarine's are arguably one of the strongest Chapters I'm certain material aid would have been welcomed.

 

Tau Purges: The Ultramarines were in the middle of the Damocles Crusade before they had to turn back to face the bigger threat of the Tyranids. Perhaps the Castigator's felt that since the Ultramarine's priorities were (rightfully) focused else where, they would continue the fight so that the Ultramarine's wouldn't have to.

[Commissar Molotov]

Leviathan: I personally assume that the worst of Leviathan has been staved off, but they are still part of the current continuum as Moltov points out to me which means that they are definitely still targets ripe for a genocidal purge. Combined with the fact that this is the only Hive Fleet to get within "start worrying" range of Terra, it makes a very valid target.

 

The problem for me regarding an assault against Leviathan is that it's very much part of the current continuity. I haven't read much about it, but the whole idea of this massive Hive Fleet bearing down on Terra is very much part of the "End Times" aspect that's being portrayed. Can the Imperium stop Leviathan whilst simultaneously holding back Orks, Necrons, Eldar, Tau and dissent from within?

 

There's also not that strong link with the Ultramarines that I'd been hoping to propogate.

 

Material Assistance: Even if the Castigator's weren't at the actual battle of Maccrage, whose to say they couldn't have given assistance in the form of resources to the Ultramarines, to help them. Although the Ultramarine's are arguably one of the strongest Chapters I'm certain material aid would have been welcomed.

 

The problem here is that the fluff doesn't mention material aid being given to the Ultramarines. Tricky in that sense. I don't want to trample over continuity, and this isn't an aim to tie myself into the continuity, but to bounce off it - the idea of placing myself after Behemoth rather than saying that the Castigators helped defend Macragge or somesuch.

 

Tau Purges: The Ultramarines were in the middle of the Damocles Crusade before they had to turn back to face the bigger threat of the Tyranids. Perhaps the Castigator's felt that since the Ultramarine's priorities were (rightfully) focused else where, they would continue the fight so that the Ultramarine's wouldn't have to.

 

This one is interesting - I don't know, but it might be good. I'd certainly need to think about it, I think.

[Nash Trickster]

One of the other options is to make the Purge a generally Xenocidal one. This option is cool, showing the Castigators lashing out in anger at whatever aliens are nearby. But it doesn't have that tangible link to Behemoth.

Now I may have the solution you're looking for...

 

It's not until Behemoth's arrival that the Imperium realized that Genestealers were in fact Tyranid organisms... Thus, in honour of their fallen Ultramarines brethren, the Castigators could have tracked and purged several Genestealer Cults (retracing the known path of a Space Hulk which was known to have harboured Genestealers for example)...

Edited August 19, 2008 by Nash Trickster