The Castigators

[Octavulg]

staunch and stalwart guardians of the Imperium.

 

Staunch and stalwart mean pretty much the same thing, making this a little redundant.

 

In the millennia since their inception, the Chapter has carved its name into the annals of Imperial history on countless occasions, ensuring their name is spoken with respect by friend and foe alike.

 

The last bit is a bit repetitive (name).

 

Perhaps something like: "ensuring they are respected by friend and foe alike."

 

Or "feared by friend and foe alike." This is the Imperium.

 

Chapter Symbol

 

You really need to work Korhal in here somewhere. I'm just saying. :o

 

Wait...perhaps...Losanco is...

 

It isn't, is it? </joke>

 

As with fully two-thirds of all Space Marine Chapters,

 

Points for quoting pretty much exactly, loss of points for quoting such a weak line. I'd cut the "fully" bit, myself. It just feels off.

 

Also, exact quotes aren't exactly what you want in your IA, no?

 

It is said the Genetor-Magi considered and then discarded many perfectly usable progenoid glands in his efforts.

 

In the line before this, you forgot to capitalize Castigators.

 

Also, you're mixing up your plural/singular here. Pick one.

 

The reasons for these drastic measures would seem to be rooted in the after-effects of the thirteenth Astartes founding, the so-called 'Dark Founding'. All records relating to this tumultuous time has long since been eradicated or lost, leaving behind only supposition and assumption. Those aware of exactly what transpired would seem unprepared to divulge their secrets. Whatever occured, it is clear that the myopic focus upon genetic purity during the founding of the Castigators affected them deeply to this day.

 

I am uncomfortable with this characterization of the Dark Founding, as I have mentioned many times. Why you guys couldn't use the 22nd Founding for this, I'm still not clear.

 

The Chapter, once founded headed deep within the Ultima Segmentum on a campaign to prove its worth in the Emperor's service.

 

'Once founded, the Chapter' might flow a little better.

 

* * *

 

one of only a handful in the Imperium known to have a 'tidally locked' orbit.

 

Handful seems low, somehow.

 

The descendents of those few survivors clung to the barely habitable dark-side, surviving on the last remnants of the failing technology, subjected to the intense cold.

 

A ) A little heavy on 'survive' in there.

B ) It might be possible to be confused about whether the tech or the people is subjected to the cold.

C ) Surviving on makes it sound kind of like they're eating the circuitry. :o

 

It reads a little awkwardly at the moment. Personally, I'd try: The descendants of those few survivors clung to the barely habitable dark-side, surviving with the last remnants of their failing technology and subjected to the intense cold.

 

Many of the planet's highest peaks were swathed in ice.

 

If it's so cold, wouldn't most of the planet be?

 

Babies showing even the most minor of malformations were hurriedly and quietly killed by their own mothers or families, such was the stigma of giving birth to a mutant offspring.

 

Again. You really need to read the Chrysalids.

 

Only the hardiest (some would say most fool-hardy) undertook such missions.

 

Too much 'hardy', IMO. Perhaps just 'foolish'.

 

* * *

 

even going so far as to teleport the Chapter's Terminators into an enemy camp to brutally decapitate them.

 

Makes it sound like the Terminators are gonna take the time to cut the head off everyone in the camp.

 

* * *

 

Overall, it might be best to try and tone back the use of the actual name of the Chapter (notably in the Battlefield Doctrines and Beliefs sections). It's kinda hard to write without it, I agree, but reading the same name every other sentence gets kinda wearying. One point on the Geneseed section. You say "great stead on", when I have only ever seen "great stead in".

 

Oh, and regarding homeworld plausibility - some throaway line about how life is marginally possible near the border between light and dark. Which really ought to make the planet a better metaphor for humanity, no?

 

Keep in mind you're still well below official IA length. Remain calm.

 

I'll address your own concerns with it in the morning/afternoon. I thought it best to get this up before events moved on without me.

[Commissar Molotov]

Staunch and stalwart mean pretty much the same thing, making this a little redundant.

 

Absolutely. I liked the alliterative aspect of it, though. I do agree entirely that it should be removed. I have my concerns with that initial introductory paragraph anyway. I don't think it conveys enough of what the Castigators are about. You could change the Chapter name in that paragraph and use it for any Chapter in the Liber, really.

 

The last bit is a bit repetitive (name).

 

Perhaps something like: "ensuring they are respected by friend and foe alike."

 

Or "feared by friend and foe alike." This is the Imperium.

 

Good spot on the repetition. But to my mind the whole first paragraph is the same sentence stated two different ways. And to my mind, it seems many of the enemies in the 41st millennium wouldn't fear the Space Marines. I don't know... It's probably just a section that needs to be scrapped and then re-written.

 

You really need to work Korhal in here somewhere. I'm just saying. ;)

 

Wait...perhaps...Losanco is...

 

It isn't, is it? </joke>

 

Hah. Well, I might work Arcturus into there somewhere, just for you.

 

Points for quoting pretty much exactly, loss of points for quoting such a weak line. I'd cut the "fully" bit, myself. It just feels off.

 

Also, exact quotes aren't exactly what you want in your IA, no?

 

See, you've brought this up before. Whilst it may be a direct quote, I didn't directly quote it. It's just happenstance. But you're right - it is similar to a section from official background, and so it's likely going to be altered.

 

In the line before this, you forgot to capitalize Castigators.

 

Also, you're mixing up your plural/singular here. Pick one.

 

Good point, I'd forgotten that I'd written about Magi and not a single Magos.

 

I am uncomfortable with this characterization of the Dark Founding, as I have mentioned many times. Why you guys couldn't use the 22nd Founding for this, I'm still not clear.

 

That's fine - I'm uncomfortable with the idea of the Fallen hijacking a loyalist Chapter. We all have our bugbears. :D The thing is that I don't mention what went on in the Dark Founding whatsoever. I don't mention that the Chapters created were flawed. My presonal thinking is that different Magi would be responsible for each Chapter within a founding. After all, a founding would be a huge event. The Magi involved in the Castigators were exceptionally stringent - and that stringency rubbed off on the Chapter. Was that stringency a result of the thirteenth founding? Potentially. Nobody will ever truly know.

 

Handful seems low, somehow.

 

Certainly true. I'll edit that.

 

A ) A little heavy on 'survive' in there.

B ) It might be possible to be confused about whether the tech or the people is subjected to the cold.

C ) Surviving on makes it sound kind of like they're eating the circuitry. :P

 

It reads a little awkwardly at the moment. Personally, I'd try: The descendants of those few survivors clung to the barely habitable dark-side, surviving with the last remnants of their failing technology and subjected to the intense cold.

 

Those are all valid points and I'll likely alter them.

 

If it's so cold, wouldn't most of the planet be?

 

The arguments put forward by the other amateurs in this thread was that hot air on one side would be pushed onto the cold side as a result of air pressure - that gusts of warmer air near the day/night divide would make it barely liveable. I don't know... I just write this stuff. ;)

 

Again. You really need to read the Chrysalids. :P

 

I'll put it on my Amazon wish-list. ;)

 

---

 

The point regarding the Chapter's name is entirely valid. With a one-word Chapter name it's difficult, though. I always try to alternate between "the Chapter" and "the Castigators". There aren't many other synonyms I can use without sounding ridiculous. I appreciate that it might be wearying, but I'm hoping to sit down and re-work many of the sections anyway.

 

Still, thank you for the input.

[Octavulg]

The point regarding the Chapter's name is entirely valid. With a one-word Chapter name it's difficult, though. I always try to alternate between "the Chapter" and "the Castigators". There aren't many other synonyms I can use without sounding ridiculous.

 

I hear 'they' is a lovely pronoun. ;)

 

I appreciate that it might be wearying, but I'm hoping to sit down and re-work many of the sections anyway.

 

True. In that light, I'll wander on through and look at the concerns you raised yourself. Really, the damn thing is supposed to make you happy, so if it doesn't, that's the biggest flaw.

 

As I've said, I'm not necessarily keen on how this is structured. I really want a punchy introduction to the article, but not something which is just a "ZOMG THE CASTIGATORS ARE AWESOME!" - I want to refine it so that it doesn't seem bland. At the moment, the two sentences in that paragraph seem to be saying the same thing in two different ways. It's probably a legacy of having to go through so many drafts. I took out that sentence with the three campaigns that served as examples of the combat prowess of the Castigators. It seemed as though they were just names shoved in to give the Chapter some gravitas. It felt cheap, and so I took it out. Yet I'm not sure where to go with it.

 

Merge the first sentence with the second paragraph, eliminating the second sentence entirely. That drags you right into the whole bit about their genetic purity et al. I ran into something very similar with the Ice Lords - even though it's a convention to have that sort of chest-beating at the start of the IA, you can usually tell when the writer's heart isn't in it. Best to just launch into the bit you do care about - the enthusiasm will make up for the lack of adherence to convention.

 

The thirteenth/fourteenth dichotomy is something I want to preserve, but at the moment it seems awakwardly written. I'm keen to portray the fact that extreme methods were used during the founding of the Castigators - extreme methods that laid the foundation for their own obsession with genetic purity.

 

Then just explain that. I'm not sure why you're so worried about the Thirteenth/Fourteenth dichotomy in any case: to a certain extent, I would expect a lack of knowledge/knowledge dichotomy, with the obsession with purity extending to excellent records and the like as well. As is, it just feels incomplete.

 

Next, Baraquiel. I don't want to become myopic with him - too many articles focus around the Chapter Master as a pivotal figure.

 

Hey, sometimes the Chapter Master is. :P The BT spend a lot of time talking about Sigismund, for example.

 

I in no way spend large chunks of an IA talking about my Chapter Master. No. </shifty>

 

Whilst instrumental in their founding - he exacerbated their sense of righteousness and helped gestate that bellicose personality that would become the archetypal Castigator - whilst he found and chose Losanco - I don't want to focus around him. He needs to be there, but I need to work on how to describe him. I'm not sure if it's done well enough.

 

Honestly, I don't think it is. I think you either need more detail or less - either give us something more of a picture of Baraquiel, or make him a bit more faceless and unimportant. Something about his service history, or a bit more of his personality.

 

I also cut out the paragraph detailing the AdMech giving them a battle-barge - it's not needed, I think. All Chapters would be given equipment and materiel - so I've ditched it. The key thing, in my opinion, is ending the 'origins' section with them entering the Ultima Segmentum. It lets me tie in with the Homeworld section properly.

 

Traditionally, home world is just about the home world, not about any actual events. I would thus wonder if the whole discovery thing doesn't really belong in Origins, instead.

 

This section I'm somewhat wary of - it's meant to be one of the most important in the article. Losanco reflects and encapsulates so many of the themes within the Castigators. I want to do a proper job on it. So I'm stuck between my obligation to describe Losanco whilst highlighting those themes and the fact that I don't want to overload the reader.

 

Load the bastards up. It's important. One option would be to transfer most of the current stuff (especially the stuff most relevant to the Castigators' discovery of the planet) to Origins, and then use Home World to flesh it out further.

 

Keep in mind - you're 700-1700 words short of the IA standard. You have space. Remain calm.

 

I need to describe Baraquiel's reaction to the planet whilst also describing their fortress-monastery. As a result, I'm not convinced I'm doing either justice, yet.

 

Reaction in Origins, Fortress Monastery in Home World. Trust me. ;)

 

I also know that Octavulg had some concerns that the humans couldn't survive, and that I need to restate their circumstances to make it that bit more viable. Hopefully I can make them seem interesting.

 

I'll reiterate my thing about "border between light and dark". Scientifically plausible and thematically appropriate for humanity. Double win!

 

My concern in this section is having something to say - the Castigators adhere to the Codex Astartes, but I'm keen to emphasise how they're different, whilst making this section long enough not to be a complete waste. Thoughts are welcome here.

 

Really, the sections are designed to be a complete waste. They're usually barely three paragraphs between them - and that's OK. You're trying to fill space here - talk about the stuff that's important and most common - the big picture. Leave the details (like Castella and the individual uses of each squad) out, and focus on the big bits - like the first paragraph, the first few lines of the others, and the last. The rest is trying to fill space, and it shows.

 

Not everything has to be filled out, man. :) In fact, filling stuff out too much can risk losing the themes among the dross. Chekhov's Law is the bestest law there is.

 

The way that the "Librarians" and "Techmarines" sections are included here is terrible. I'm inclined to remove the Techmarine section entirely and save that for the site. The Librarians are important, though. Again, here I want to make the Castigators distinct and interesting.

 

Techmarines might fit OK in beliefs, actually - talk about the divided loyalties there. The Librarians bit is the only important bit. I'd say reduce the other bits to a sentence about codex-adherent structure and start talking about the Librarians.

 

My biggest concern here is paragraph structure - I don't think it follows a logical progression. Instead it seems a little jumbled, and I'd appreciate other peoples' thoughts on this issue.

 

Indeed. I'd throw the bit about the Navigators back in with the Librarians - it'd fit a bit better. I'd also leave out the ceremonies - perhaps a sidebar is in order for them?

 

As to structure...merge the bit about Chaos with the bit about Monodomination. Work from their views on the most debased (Chaos), up to the loyalists, then do the bit about aliens. Then continue as you have it. The two paragraphs repeat each other a lot.

 

Something like this for the middle paragraph:

The Castigators are known to adhere to philosophies that could be compared to Inquisitor Goldo's principles of Monodomination. They are utterly ruthless and unforgiving when it comes to those they perceive as aiding the enemies of the Imperium. Mutants, aliens, psykers and religious deviants are all to be called to account for their activities. Those that have allowed themselves to submit to temptation and fall to Chaos are especially hated. The only punishment for those who stray from the Emperor's path is death. The Castigators are utterly devoted to this belief and have in the past even been openly hostile towards loyalist Space Marines they have perceived to have a mutated or debased gene-seed. They utterly refuse to work alongside aliens such as Eldar or Kroot.

 

I think that might work better. It eliminates a bit of the emphasis on hatred of Chaos, but I think it improves the flow enough to compensate. YMMV.

 

This is a decent enough section - unsure what people think could be added or altered here. Suggestions are certainly welcome, though.

 

Seems perfectly fine. Geneseed sections are never particularly prolonged, frankly.

 

* * *

 

Hope that's of help.

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm very glad that no data got lost in the crash! ;)

[Octavulg]

You don't keep a seperate text copy on your computer?

 

'Cause you should.

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, I do, but I hadn't captured the most recent ideas. Plus, this thread is valuable to me, as it contains a bunch of useful ideas and gems. If nothing else, it helps chart a large part of the Chapter's development. I wouldn't want it to disappear! :huh:

 

In other news, I've recently been corresponding with a user by the name of 'The Exorcists', who has been talking to me about Captain Caphius. Here are some of the pieces I've found most useful:

 

I have also started work on a short story which includes Caphius facing off against the Dark Eldar and trying to emulate his favorite Hero! I'm trying to demonstrate not only his intense zeal, but as a deep love for his men. I believe he "sees his Company as a furious weapon in the arsenal of the Imperium, and has hand-picked the most faithful and furious Marines from the reserve Companies to supplement his forces". This conjures up images of a old blowhard, striding up and down the lines with artillery and small arms fire whips around him, wreathed in a crown of fire and shouting encouragement to his warriors. I can see him taking personnel losses very personally. Not only is he bothered from a strategic stand point, but a personal one, as he hand-picked his own men.

 

Interesting indeed. I'd been planning to include Caphius in a short story alongside Anteas and the Fifth. The eventual point would be that Anteas saved the day, yet Caphius got the glory. msn-wink.gif He wants to be Chapter Master, but the truth is that he never will be - Escalus is far younger than him and is First Captain...

 

But your description is very accurate, I think. People have too much of a tendency to make their characters awesome paragons of virtue and nobility. It seems unthought of to have characters that are arrogant/covetous/greedy - but still capable, you know?

 

Caphius might even be the easiest Captain to model - I've been planning to make a Caphius using the Captain from the Black Reach boxed-set, with the bolter removed and using the Power Fist from the Master of the Arsenal.

 

Your thoughts are interesting - be sure to contribute in the thread with your ideas on Caphius! He's one of the dominant captains in the Chapter, and he's not received much in the way of air-time recently.

 

I agree with your assesment of how people treat their own characters. They want to really remodel themselves into their perfect being. What a lot of people seem to forget is that a single bit of humanity makes of those noble qualities even more noble!

 

I can see the ceromonial aspect of the phsycial crown [of thorns], but i also see him wearing it against especially hated foes. Not only will the pain focus his mind and faith to better purge the unclean, but put yourself in the shoes of the enemy.

 

You are facing off against the Elite of Humanity, but you care not. You are well trained, armed, and armoured. Your morale is high and victory is near. Now enter Captain Caphius. He strides at the head of his troops, face twisted in a bellow of righteous fury, blasting indiscriminatley into your ranks with his blessed Plasma Pistol. As he comes closer you notice a cloak of (color unknown ,was thinking white), whirl about him as he lays into your comrades with his power fist. He turns on you after finishing his latest victim. You feel utter horror as you look upon his face. Blood runs freely from his head, and the last image you have is of his eyes, filled with bottomless zeal and fury, appearing to weep blood.

 

Something that i have always been interested in was Caphius's belief that he is Lycidius's "Spiritual" successor. I think that further defining Lycidius' views could go a long way in fleshing out Caphius and the 2nd as a whole. As far as specific enemies, I can see a multitude of favored foes, but the Dark Eldar and Word Bearers come to mind. The former as it mirrors the Hero-Captain, and the latter because of the dichotomy the two would represent in opposition to each other.

 

Yes, I always liked the idea that Caphius has spent much of his life as a Space Marine attempting to live up to the example of Lycidius. Yet he's a flawed reflection, really.

 

You're right that Lycidius needs to be fleshed out also. It's in my extensive "to-do" list. My vague chronology has him becoming First-Captain (something Caphius hasn't achieved) and then dying during the Truth War. Now the Truth War is also something that's not been fleshed out, but it's meant to be a real dark point in the Chapter's history, where they stand on the brink of being excommunicated due to... something. I'm not sure, but my original plans were that it was to do with an Inquisitor who had managed to subvert a squad of Castigators and was using them to cause mayhem. That said, it uses the tired "Inquisitor ex Machina", and I wasn't sure.

 

Anyway, I had also started writing some fiction where Lycidius is searching for something... and he threatens an astropath to get the answers he needs. Again, I've not crystallised my ideas there, and input is always welcomed. The point was that Lycidius was also a flawed character - violent, irrational, zealous and bombastic. He was someone who deeply worried the moderates within the Chapter - and even as he died and the Chapter mourned, there were some who whispered that perhaps it was a good thing he'd been taken before he could become the Chapter Master and lead the Castigators down a dark road that could shatter all their carefully constructed alliances with organisations like the Inquisition, the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Navigators.

 

 

I rather like the idea of the Castigators on the verge of excommunication from the very Imperiumt they strive so hard to protect. But why can't they have wrought such mayhem on their own? They are narrow-minded, superior, and zealous warriors. I can easily see them exacting measures that most of "mainstream" Imperial thought would deem too far. Maybe they felt that the local Ecclesiarchy representatives were found wanted and brutrually castigated for their sins? Or the populace was considered so far from grace that the Castigators sought to cleanse their souls with pain and death?

 

On the Lycidius side, i see him very much as a Heinrich Zimmler ( I do hope i have the correct name, correct me if im wrong), the head of the SS. He was viewed by some in the party as almost too far in some respects. Some of the more "moderates" in the party found his beliefs hard to swallow. I mean he dedicated himself fully to the more spiritual and pagan aspects. Perhaps Lycidius is searching for an ancient artifact that would grant only the true of heart and those filled with piety unquestioned power. Assured in his own qualities, he would claim the artifact in the name of the Emperor, becoming chapter master and better able to execute wars against the enemies of Humanity. This way he could sort of twist his own personal desires and not even realize he is doing it?

 

The Truth War is definitely something that'll have to be discussed further. If we can gather some ideas and options, we can attempt to solicit further opinions. As to Lycidius searching for a relic... perhaps. I want to avoid people going "ZOMG HE'S FALLING TO CHAOS!". I do like the idea that his 'pure' desires could be somewhat 'corrupted'. I don't know - it rather depends what sort of artefact or relic he could be looking for.

 

 

I think it would have to be portrayed as more of a quest for Lycidius. He is couold almost be more of an Inqusitor Lord Torquemada Coteaz type character. Who feels the best way he can serve the Emperor is by commanding the entire chapter and posses this relic. Maybe the relic ended up being the Hero's Mantle itself, and he felt great dissapointment that it wasn't as fabled as he orginally thought. But Caphius doesn't need to know that

 

In other news, I got a free copy of Black Reach a few days ago and I've been fiddling around with the Captain model - hopefully my Caphius model will take shape soon! :yes:

Edited August 26, 2008 by Commissar Molotov

[Tyrannicide]

An interesting conversation you two had. Some good ideas coming from both sides of it. Hopefully we'll see Caphius in model-form soon!

[Nash Trickster]

I was playing with the SM Terminator painter today (while I was on the phone with a client) and ended up making something which looked too much like a Castigator... This made me think about the suggestion I made to add thorny vines on the Dreadnought and your answer that it'd look too "Biel Tan"...

 

I couldn't resist trying to add thorny vines to the termie to see what it'd look like (Termies are after all the closest thing we've got to a Dread as far as painters are concerned :P ) and here's the result of five minutes of "Photoshopping"...

 

http://pageperso.aol.fr/nashtrickster/sons/castigator.jpg

(I've made it quite small because, the image being quickly thrown together, the thorns' definition is really bad at bigger resolutions, but it gives IMO a quite good idea of what a Castigator model with thorny motifs could look like...)

 

And... I don't think it looks too "Biel Tan" :eek

Edited August 27, 2008 by Nash Trickster

[Commissar Molotov]

I was playing with the SM Terminator painter today (while I was on the phone with a client) and ended up making something which looked too much like a Castigator... This made me think about the suggestion I made to add thorny vines on the Dreadnought and your answer that it'd look too "Biel Tan"...

 

I couldn't resist trying to add thorny vines to the termie to see what it'd look like (Termies are after all the closest thing we've got to a Dread as far as painters are concerned ) and here's the result of five minutes of "Photoshopping"...

 

http://pageperso.aol.fr/nashtrickster/sons/castigator.jpg

(I've made it quite small because, the image being quickly thrown together, the thorns' definition is really bad at bigger resolutions, but it gives IMO a quite good idea of what a Castigator model with thorny motifs could look like...)

 

And... I don't think it looks too "Biel Tan" :pinch:

 

It's funny you should bring up the idea of "painting vines" on armour once again. I was discussing with The Exorcists the issue of Captain Caphius and his Crown of Thorns. I mentioned that the Captain might not wear it all the time - it wouldn't be appropriate in all combat environments, after all. I mentioned that he might paint the honour upon his armour. The thorned wreath would be analogous to the laurel wreath in the Ultramarines (and other Codex Chapters) - so all standard bearers would have it.

 

So I'm definitely intrigued that by the wreaths - whilst not a common visual element, they could definitely work. I think the key in differentiating them from Biel-Tan (in my mind at least) would be controlling the shape of the vines - rather than random swirls, having them be in a band or a wreath.

 

The comments about the thorns have actually fueled a lot of work. I've been recently consulting with a great designer by the name of Rens Jansen, who has put together the first concepts for the Castigator's new website:

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/Castigators/TheCastigatorsIndexPrev-1.png

 

You can see a slightly bigger picture here - you'll have to forgive Photobucket crushing the image during the upload process...

 

Still, there's definitely more to come. :P

Edited August 28, 2008 by Commissar Molotov

[Nash Trickster]

I think the key in differentiating them from Biel-Tan (in my mind at least) would be controlling the shape of the vines - rather than random swirls, having them be in a band or a wreath.

That's somehow what I've unconsciously done... I've used the 'popular' tatoo motif of 2 "vines" intertwined for my quick photoshop mock-up and I indeed think it's part of what makes it not "Biel Tan"-like.

The thorn-wreath is actually one of the "real life" heraldic devices that is surprisingly not used that much in 40k imagery while it fits perfectly to the gothic feel of the setting.

 

Also, an idea I had:

The other thing the thorn-wreath remind me about is the "Cilice", this kind of band with metallic thorns on the inside that "some people" attach around a limb as a mortification penance, making each move painful...

I can picture the most zealot Castigators using such a device to punish themselves from alledged "sins" (such as not killing enough heretics during the last battle, etc...) <_<

 

Or, the idea of "voluntarily inflicting oneself pain" could be adapted to SMs, and some of the more zealots within the chapter could maybe purposefully drain the pain-killers stock of their armours before battles to feel the full pain of "failing the Emperor" when they get wounded? (Something which would obviously be frowned upon by both the Apothecaries and the Chapter's command but secretely encouraged by some of the Captains/Chaplains?) But maybe that'd make them too "flagellant" like?

Edited August 28, 2008 by Nash Trickster

[Commissar Molotov]

Quick note - I included a picture in my last post, so it's easier to see. There's a bigger picture linked in the post.

 

I know of the cilice from The Da Vinci Code. and I'm not sure. It's possible. I mentioned the idea of self-mutilation in the original IA article. I never wanted it to be a core, key part of the Chapter ideal, but just an outlying idea that helped make the Chapter seem multi-faceted. It's like yesterday I was talking to Aerion, who said that he always sees the Castigators as haloed by blinding light - the Castigators do see suns and stars as potent symbols of death, which is why Sirius has taken the starburst as his heraldry, but I wouldn't want to see every Castigator ever with a starburst upon their armour. There's many themes and ideas within the Castigators and there are some in there that I don't want to take to extremes. I don't necessarily want the Castigators to be "the flagellant Chapter."

 

The Castigators revere the Emperor, for His sacrifice and for all He had to endure to ensure that humanity survived the dark days of the Horus Heresy. He surrendered more than most can even imagine. Many of the chapter's marines commit acts of self-mutilation in an attempt to further their own spiritual growth. These acts are overlooked by the Chapter's commanders, as they encourage piety. The pain is welcomed, and is a small price to pay for understanding even a small sliver of the Emperor's suffering and sacrifice.

 

With that said, 'to Castigate' means 'to punish' and the idea was always that they punished their enemies - but that they were equally hard upon themselves. Strength through strife. The purest would out, and the Chapter would remain strong.

[Nash Trickster]

I never wanted it to be a core, key part of the Chapter ideal, but just an outlying idea that helped make the Chapter seem multi-faceted.

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough that it's what I suggested... The interesting part about having some Castigators using Cilices and/or "secretly" draining the pain-killers from their armours, is that it wouldn't be endorsed by the Chapter at all!

 

Only a few of the most Zealot Captains and Chaplains would "recommend" such practices but always unofficially.

The chapter's official "statement" about such conducts would be something along the lines of "Self-inflicted pain while on the battlefield slows a brother, makes him less focused on his mission and thus less efficient in doing the Emperor's deeds. Hence such practices cannot be accepted..." (cue a list of rightful punishments for anyone caught in the act).

The Zealots unofficial "argumentation" would be "If pain slows you down, then you're not trying hard enough. If pain makes you loose focus, you're not focusing hard enough. If pain makes you fail your Emperor, then you haven't understood pain's purpose. Only through living pain can you understand its purpose. If you're afraid to be punished, then you certainly deserve to be!"

 

I don't think such "trivial" aspects of the chapter should appear in their IA, but since you'll be dwelving deeper in all the Castigators' aspects with your website, I think including such things would bring a level of depth to the chapter which can only be interesting.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Nash Trickster

[Commissar Molotov]

"If pain slows you down, then you're not trying hard enough. If pain makes you loose focus, you're not focusing hard enough. If pain makes you fail your Emperor, then you haven't understood pain's purpose. Only through living pain can you understand its purpose..."

 

Hah, I like that.

 

I might perhaps be able to work in something focusing around the more extreme beliefs of the zealots within the Chapter. It's definitely an interesting line of thought...

[Commissar Molotov]

This is slightly off-topic, but pertains to the basic construction of my IA article - and my writing style. So I guess it's somewhat pertinent after all. I was sent a link to http://wordle.net, which analyses a piece of work with some algorithm and rates the words within based on their usage. This is the result after putting the Castigators' IA through. I've set it to take out the common English words (so that 'the', 'and' and 'of' don't dominate):

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/Castigatorwordle.jpg

 

You can see a larger-sized version here.

 

It shows some interesting things - not least that I need to go through and capitalise all the instances of 'Chapter'! Still, key words such as 'Marines', 'Imperium' 'Warriors' and 'Worship' can be made out. My thought was that key thematic elements would've been threaded throughout the IA and thus be relatively large. Whilst 'mutants' can be easily read', It somewhat disappoints me that 'pure' isn't on there, and that 'purity' isn't larger. I'm somewhat curious as to whether the Castigators' key themes are evident or not. Octavulg made an incredibly pertinent point earlier in this thread when he said that at the end of the day, I had to be the one satisfied with the end result - and I'm not sure that it is fulfilling the functions I want it to. I'm hoping to sit down over the next few days and conduct some hefty revisions. :rolleyes:

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

Wow that picture looks cool, it does show what words are used the most ("mutants" seems to be a big one). I think I may use that site there for some of my own works.

 

I have not yet commented on your IA, but as most have said it is great, the art is great, and its a unique chapter.

[Commissar Molotov]

I have not yet commented on your IA, but as most have said it is great, the art is great, and its a unique chapter.

 

Thanks! I think NemFX had it right when he said none of my ideas are unique - they're just expressed in a unique way. The Castigators are distinct rather than different. Superficially you could compare them to the Black Templars, but there are differences enough to seperate the two.

 

In an effort not to derail this thread I've posted an entry in my blog here about the new Castigators website. I'm looking for opinions from everybody that wants to participate! :nuke: I'll be thankful to anybody that chooses to respond. :)

 

I've heard from one of the staffers at my GW that the new Space Marine Codex (which is 'as thick as a DVD case') includes a lengthy section detailing the Ultramarines Second Company - each squad has a name and a history. I'm very keen to see what's going to be included in the new Codex, and whether it will affect the Castigators. For example, I'm curious how 'Sternguard' and 'Vanguard' will interact with the First Company. The Castigators have a different First Company organisation due to their twenty-one suits of TDA; they have four Terminator squads and then eight Veteran squads.

 

The new Codex can't come soon enough! :)

[Pulse]

Dear me, this chapter just gets more and more detailed. I seem to have missed a fair bit on these boys. Have to say great work on your part Mol for having the patience to carry on evolving this chapter!

 

Surprised to hear the new 'dex is going to be as thick as a DVD case, that is rather exciting news, i will be getting my grubby mits on a copy i am very sure. I like the sound of the Ultramarines having histories and squad names printed, not sure if anything like that has been done before so i am looking forward to it.

 

Look forward to reading more on the Castigators if they need to evolve again due to the new 'dex, and to see the new webby. :blush:

Edited September 1, 2008 by Pulse

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, today I managed to get down my Games Workshop and read the Codex for an hour or so. There's a lot of interesting things. I've been planning on using Sicarius to count-as Captain Anteas, and his rules are certainly interesting. He's equipped with a sword which I'll quite happily be counting as the Sword of Sorrows, gifted to Anteas by the Sisters of Battle. (Feel free to make your own jokes about him wielding a woman's weapon... :P)

 

Hopefully I'll be getting pictures of my Anteas conversion soon! :huh:

[Ferrus Manus]

Hopefully I'll be getting pictures of my Anteas conversion soon!

Excellent can't wait to see him, I'll try and get my latest pics of Tigris up asap.

[Commissar Molotov]

You know, I saw the Red Scorpions Vanguard on Forgeworld and thought the Vet Sgt Culln model would make a great base for Tigris:

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/vanrs3.jpg

Edited September 6, 2008 by Commissar Molotov

[Tyrannicide]

I think that model fits Tigris perfectly. I really like all the details, and the armor itself looks ornate enough for the young-gun.

[Ferrus Manus]

I think that model fits Tigris perfectly.

 

Its just a shame he doesn't have an axe...

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, one of the plastic assault squad arms has an axe. Should be easy to do the switch.

[Commissar Molotov]

So I've managed to get hold of the Codex once more and I have to report I'm deeply saddened by this snippet:

 

Black Consuls: "Recorded as annihilated at the Siege of Goddeth Hive, 455.M41. Current status unknown."

 

It's terrible for the Castigators, and definitely something that's going to have some impact.

 

A black day for the Chapter!

[Tyrannicide]

Indeed. As we spoke about earlier, definitely something the Castigators would mourn once receiving word about the events that unfolded. Whether this is repainting sections of their power armor, adorning plates with litanies and scripts, or painting symbols, you'll have to decide.

 

In other news. I've been intrigued by thoughts of long dead heroes of the Castigators Chapter, especially the Chapter Masters. You've noted three named commanders: Baraquiel, Septimus, and present Chapter Master Quintilius. I'm also fascinated with the old Librarians of the Chapter, the Marines with a psychic presence particularly. I find these times would be interesting to speculate about, considering the Chapter slowly absorbs the Loscanan beliefs and awaits the mutants deaths.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Darth Potato