++ The Brotherhood of Dust - A Thousand Sons Community ++

[Zodd1888]

I'm not finding a need for a break but I'm finding the design logic for our legion hard to follow. Our dex has to be coming out soon for them to be making these adjustments so early.

[Paladin777]

honestly, I think that the points increase to the walking exalted sorc is entirely justified. He gets a massive stat Boost (extra wound being the most important), and invulnerable save, and an aura affect for 22 pts over a regular sorc.

 

I do think that the dust sorc should have been a few points less due to the regular sorc Acquiring the invulnerable save with the disc when out exalted already have it but it's still not bad!

 

I just wish they hadn't teased us with the other points cost first, and if they hadn't I dont think any of us would have been complaining!

 

I'm mostly irritated with the gutting of the psychic phase. I've said it before, but despite all the bloat and flaws that the 7e psychic phase had, I finally felt like we had the army of space wizards like we were meant to be and now that's kinda gone.

[Archaeinox]

I think Psychic Focus is great. Could you handle multiple casts of Tyranid powers? Would multiple Warp Time/Prescience help you in that game? Probably not. I'm not sure it would help me much. Also, I don't want to cast twice on each exalted sorcerer... That'd be a lot of Perils. My favorite part about 8th ed so far is that +IF+ I fail Warp Time or Prescience, I can still fight ok. In 7th, failure of a power was much more devastating.

 

Try to accept that the game as it stands currently is just temporary and soldier through it. Do what I did for 4th, 5th, and 6th.. Paint your armies and laugh if you get tabled by some unpainted poo and shake their hand. That might sound arrogant, but sorry, what legion do we play again? Oh yeah, TS.

 

If you could handle 5th edition as Thousand Sons (which didnt really exist in the rules at all except for rubrics), you can handle this. No, I won't be taking a break from 8th when I am having so much fun. Sorry other folks aren't enjoying it. Try to get past the quirks and go ahead and table those elite armies.....

[Prot]

I'm loving it too... just the increases feel like an after thought rather than a mistake. Tigurius is amazing and I have not played a game of 8th using my Ultra's without him. He's an even better deal now. (they did do interesting rules tweaks to make him very good, but still quite different from Ahriman... Ahriman still has extra casts/denials!)

 

The Aura/Daemon Disk thing is really annoying to me. It should have been handled at the same time they decided to increase the points for the unit/Disk. (That way they could have taken a little away but given a little back.)

 

I do have a rules question that's come up in some of my groups.... the Warp Time power, does it affect units that have come out of reserve from over 9" away from opponents? (Thus allowing them to get closer?)

 

I have been mostly using it to double move more important stuff as I don't really have big assault elements in my Thousand Sons. So not a huge deal either way for me.

[Archaeinox]

Yes, you are in a unique position to compare what we are capable of to what your UM are capable of with Tigurius. Regarding those two characters, I am quite happy where both their rules are. I feel like TS got a comparable character who is still well represented while being different.

[MoGuy]

I really enjoy the Psychic Phase in 8th edition. Right not the "rule of one" might feel a bit weird since there are so few powers but once all the codices drop I think we will appreciate that armies can't spam certain spells over and over. 

 

The Psychic Phase in 7th took AGES and was hardly interactive at all. Many armies had literally no defence against it (Dark Eldar, Ad Mech etc.). Now stopping powers is actually not just a gamble of how many 6s you can roll. 

 

And my regular opponent (who plays Orks) actually thinks that TSons are pretty strong in the new psychic phase because we can cast smite so many times. I often run Ahriman + Exalted Sorcerer and between their smites, Infernal Gaze and the mini-smites it is easy to put 7+ mortal wounds on something in a single turn. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

I dont understand honestly.....Ill trade the psychic phase. 100%, 110%, every day, all day. I will trade the psychic phase for our now FULLY FUNCTIONAL ARMY. 

Where we aren't just "dozen space wizards, nothing else useful" (of which only 1-2 actually meant anything due to warp charge) but a fully functional army list.  Limited to be sure, but not by enough to matter considering rubricae and Scarab Occult are both fantastic and Tzaangors became very points effective. 

[Skerr]

I think we are pretty balanced, our spells are more utility than offence though we can smite and deny with the best of them.

 

If the sorcerer had been priced correct we would not have noticed perhaps. Bummer on the disc losing infantry.

 

Not to familiar with other armies but did invulns in general get reduced? Meaning less people have them and not as strong?

[Zodd1888]

Invulns have been reduced all around.

 

That said, there are still numerous armies with 4++on units among Xenos, or 3++ as equipment choices for Loyalists. I have a feeling we'll vet a boost with the dex to our Invuln based off casting again. With rule of one it'll seem more balanced.

[Prot]

I really enjoy the Psychic Phase in 8th edition. Right not the "rule of one" might feel a bit weird since there are so few powers but once all the codices drop I think we will appreciate that armies can't spam certain spells over and over. 

 

The Psychic Phase in 7th took AGES and was hardly interactive at all. Many armies had literally no defence against it (Dark Eldar, Ad Mech etc.). Now stopping powers is actually not just a gamble of how many 6s you can roll. 

 

And my regular opponent (who plays Orks) actually thinks that TSons are pretty strong in the new psychic phase because we can cast smite so many times. I often run Ahriman + Exalted Sorcerer and between their smites, Infernal Gaze and the mini-smites it is easy to put 7+ mortal wounds on something in a single turn.

 

I do agree with what you're saying here, I really began to hate the old Psychic phase horribly. I do think that it's quite fickle now though. This is one area where a day of bad luck at a tournament doesn't mean you had trouble pulling off powers (as in 7 th), but instead that same kind of luck gets a fair chunk of guys killed. I've had it happen a few times. But as you note some really decent changes came along with it.

 

Magnus and the power of his 80's hair rock band style as you put it ( which I love btw and indeed it was the era of hair that could Smite!) is the closest thing we have to a 'strong' and 'reliable' Psychic phase. But we pay for it, and he isn't nearly as survivable.

 

I definitely love the less complicated phase and as you say there's much more defence now and we can't make powers unblockable anymore.

 

On a slightly related note for the sake of strategy....

 

The interaction thing though...it's funny you mention that. I just had a really gross game against Astra the other day. It might have been the most boring game of 40k I've literally ever played. I don't mean that to sound mean but they have a non interactive playing style sometimes. And they have an auto pass Psychic phase they call 'orders'.

 

The army had 100 conscripts and an IG parking lot is back I think. A sprinkling of Tempestus Scion special weapons units deep striking and really there's no reason for IG to even move. I would try to assault, but conscripts can retreat and fire normally with 'get back in the fight' then roll 200 flashlights at you. It was really ugly and completely non interactive. I expect to see this in tournaments. I keep wondering how we could face this down. Our numbers are so few and the master of ordnance gives the smattering of tanks a great buff.

 

I thought of just playing the scenario but the Wyyverns, basilisks (3) and manticore all had non Los requirements ( if I recall correctly).

 

There were times I literally phased out while he rolled buckets of dice ( believe it or not eventually 100s of flashlights do get through landraider).

[Skerr]

Double post

[Sonoftherubric21]

Prot you have mimicked my issue with the current edition almost point for point; except replace Guardsman with Ork boyz. 

 

A friend of mine plays orks exclusively and his standard 8th list is 90 boyz + nobz and hqs with support in whatever he has left. fitting these 90 boyz easily into 1000 let alone 1500-2000 where they have tons of relatively cheap support. 

Though the Rubricae last a VERY long time, its incredibly hard to deal with that given our elite army builds. even spamming Tzaangors can only get you so far in this scenario. 

 

I have played against him with my Death Guard AND my Thousand Sons in various games (1000 and 1500 pts) and both list suffer the same issue; We are tough to get rid of but we just cant output enough damage to wipe out 90+ boyz + their support. 

Warp flamers and Warpflame pistols (any flame weapon) help's immeasurably but even with those we have stark limitations as we get 1, sometimes 2 turns of shooting before they nail us in combat and we are on the backfoot the rest of the game. 

I am sure guard are just as bad or worse given the "no line of sight" shooting. 

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I guess it may be just my luck on the games I've had, I just find smite spam boring and that it couple with our lack or special weapons/lascannons ect and now lack of anything like the old dark heretech powers, I'm fidning I'm having to focus my entire army, shooting and psychic, just to take out one dreadnought/hellbrute where as before Ahriman would have taken it and the two others out with a scrapcode curse each.

[Archaeinox]

Smite spam is boring. But there's other things that give depth. All is Dust, invuls, etc. I'm ok with that

[MoGuy]

I agree that our Psychic Phase is somewhat boring right now. But I think once we get our own spells it will get better as you then would have to make tactical decisions like which Sorcerer gets to know which spells etc.

[Skerr]

I think the only way to jazz it up is give us access to two disciplines otherwise changing out spells lists will not seem to matter much. A new list is going to have a smite and 2 utility spells so not much different. I know a lot of folks want an invuln buff though.

[Ahzek451]

Concerning the fight against hordes, granted it is not rubricae but has anyone looked at rapier quad bolters? Kinda spendy at just under 90 per gun. How many models per unit are people typically putting into conscript squads?

[Prot]

A few people have actually mentioned Rapier Bolters to me but I have no idea what they do. While I would never hold it against anybody, or a Thousand Sons player for using them, I just don't feel like that's my vision of Thousand Sons. I'd rather set them on fire with some sort of Psychic Warp flame, or barring that I'd like to use a great heresy era tank that may have survived the burning of Prospero.

 

Maybe a Fire Raptor? I remember reading a segment of one of the heresy era novels and the Thousand Sons along with Magnus would ride the skies using different Psychic disciplines to disrupt enemy aircraft and pilots.

 

A Fire Raptor is very point heavy but I felt when I read it that it was really a flying pillbox.

 

We have to figure out something. I think this is something most Astartes based armies struggle with but Chaos in general seems worse off with our elite builds and limited access to things like hurricane Bolters, whirlwinds, and the like.

 

I guess we could just take a Questoris Knight with Dual Basilisks, but that's hardly a Legion solution.

 

I really don't know but that IG parking lot is gross. I also have a regular opponent using a horde Stryker Ork army but he tries to mix it up with flyers (they are nasty) and tankbustas roaming around in battlewagons (a very strong option for them). So at least I see some variety there.

[Archaeinox]

Fought Death Guard today for the first time (in a "real" game)

 

TS:

Fatey, Ahriman, 20 Rubrics, 5 Scarabs, 10 Tzaangors, Las Predator, 3 Exalted Sorcerers

 

DG:

Typhus, Plaguecaster, 3 units of Plague Marines, 40 Poxwalkers, 2 bloat drones, 1 helbrute, 4 chaos spawn, 5 chaos terminators with melta and axes

 

Dawn of War, 1 objective in each deployment zone. I try to go first and he rolls a 6 to steal.

 

He moves up and doesn't really shoot much at all. I think he was scared to approach me. His poxwalkers were not all in the center, where I was, and this worked out great. His terminators and the Helbrute kill my Predator between shooting and combat (he made the charge. In my turn, I shoot the heck out of the closest Bloat Drone with all the Rubrics, and drop the Scarabs on the far right near the flanking unit of poxwalkers. The Scarabs don't do much. I attempted to play Fateweaver conservatively this game and he stayed back, Smiting some poxwalkers in center field. Smites from Ahriman and the 3 Exalteds blast the terminators to Oblivion.

 

He takes the Scarab bait and throws the 20 poxwalkers on my far right side into the Scarab Occult... Okay. Poxwalkers manage to charge Rubric Marines along with Typhus and destroy them. Also, they took extra damage from that nurgle power where you roll d6 for each model and on a 6 take a wound.. Because I was being cautious with Ahriman and Fateweaver, I couldn't stop it.. I would have, if they were in 24". Lesson learned for next time. In my turn, Infernal Gaze and Bolt of Change removes Typhus. At this point, the main threat in the center is gone and the Poxwalkers in the center are killed. So 20 dead by the end of turn 2. Not bad. Warpflamers after Warp Time is nice. Don't be afraid to Advance, even if it means losing out on a few bolter shots.. I am running 3 in each unit now. I think that's a sweet spot. I might run 4. Fateweaver charges a bloat drone and after failed Invul Saves it has to take 17 Disgustingly Resilient Saves and ends up dying. Tzaangors charge the Spawn. I figured it would be nice to put a cheap unit with a 5++ in onto a unit that hits on 4+ with -2 AP and 2 damage.. Worked out well, I chose to burn a command point to keep them in the fight for next turn, otherwise they would have probably broke after losing 6 guys. 

 

His turn, he plinks away at Fateweaver. The change to his invul is nice. I made lots of 4+ saves today. He was T8 for a couple turns thanks to good rolls from Boon. The Rubrics just walk up the field and end up dog-piling on the Objective. As the Exalted Sorcerers and Ahriman approach, they end up doing enough mortal wounds to slaughter 2 units of Plague Marines and a couple Spawn. Fateweaver ends up killing the rest of the Spawn after they killed the Tzaangors and consolidated into him. He just concedes at this point, with only a couple plague marines left and about 10 poxwalkers on the extreme right, in combat with my Scarabs.

 

Despite the Plasma and Blight Launchers, the Rubric Marines ended up taking 2+ saves a lot. They laugh against the plague marine bolters. The only big problem was the Nurgle powers.. You gotta stop the one that can really affect a big unit like 10 Rubric Marines with mortal wounds on 6s. OUCH. Next time I will keep the chicken or Ahriman within 24" of enemy psykers.

 

I love how the army can fight while Ahriman and his small cabal of Exalted Sorcerers sit in the back and advance when needed.

 

I had to think, though. I like that a lot. A few mistakes and he could have turned the tide. If he had charged the spawn into Ahriman and the Exalteds, it would have been a different game- bet on it. 

 

A big note on Prescience: Once stuff starts dying and all you have left are Rubrics with Warpflamers, Fateweaver, Ahriman and the Exalteds, it's pretty much useless. Try to keep more than 1 thing in your list that can really benefit from the power. Next time I will be taking a pair of TLLC/Heavy Bolter Sponsons predators instead of just one with max lascannons.

 

Also, it's a massive waste to take the Scarabs and put them in with poxwalkers. Need to get them up close to tempt stuff with plasma etc. I'm not sure I would take Scarab Occult against this Death Guard list on purpose, but they are in my "All-Comers" list, so thems the breaks right?

[WarriorFish]

What are everyone's thoughts on anti-tank for Thousand Sons? Specifically infantry/Son based. Spam firing with a decent armour modifier is nice but for hitting hard is it just Smite and Helfyre?

[Plaguecaster]

Sounds like a good game Archaeinox, what was the points size???

[Archaeinox]

2k

 

My Hellfyre Missile Rack wasn't doing anything vs. the Helbrute so I dove the terminators in combat to keep the 40 poxwalkers away from my HQs. I had the terminator for cheap AT but it died fast.. Recommend taking preds in pairs for good AT.

[Prot]

Good job Arch.

 

I do think the T5 they have is really just a great all around number to have and makes them very resilient. I found wounding on 5's is a real pain.

 

I have been trying to keep 3 flamers in too and I had 4 but the price increase of Exalteds killed it.

 

Do you really like Fateweaver? Sometimes i wonder if he pulls his weight or you just like the model? What's your assessment of him with Thousand Sons?

 

I would have been most worried about his bloat drones. Those flame wounds can cause 'math' to happen. But for sure their Psychic powers are quite good. You have to keep your strong denial units in the peripheral. This is how I use Tzaangors. They are my buffer unit to keep Ahriman close but not exposed.

 

Prescience is great but I agree it's hard to really capitalize on. I like my Helbrute for this. How was the DG Brute armed, and what did you think of it?

[Archaeinox]

He had a TLLC and a hammer, and was sitting in the corner the whole time. I kept pulling the Scarabs out of combat with those far right poxwalkers because by that time the only unit keeping the sorcerer cabal from getting shot by the helbrute was the Scarabs, since everything else was in his deployment zone getting stuck in. I am still under the impression that if you take a 48" weapon on a dreadnought, you need to take the missile launcher. If you take a melee weapon, take the multimelta, plas or heavy bolters in order to get UP IN THERE. Wasn't scared of one that just sat there.

 

Fateweaver is literally 5 lascannons in melee BUT he could wiff completely, what with not hitting on 2+ like most combat HQs. That's his big downside.. I like the command points, though... I used them for Double 1s on psychic tests 3 times, and twice for a bum Smite.

 

Yeah the Plague Marines are tough. I literally ignored them with my ranged weaponry until Typhus, Bloat Drones and the Poxwalkers were neutralized. Once they started taking Mortal Wounds, it hurt bad and that's when he conceded.

[Prot]

It sounds like you had a solid game plan.

 

My own Helbrute is las/missiles. I really hate moving and shooting in 8th. Forgefiends for example, heck any 'Daemon ' unit shoots terribly (it's why you see people try defilers one time and then put them back in their 3rd edition carry cases). But a Helbrute is fairly economical. I plan on a hammer and autocannon next.

 

The interesting match up here (to me) is plague marines vs Rubrics. They really don't do well against each other on paper. I am surprised that Typhus didn't have a bigger impact. To me he is the guts of that army, I would have had him cradled in pix walkers ( which he actually buffs with +1 T and S.