++Blood for the Blood God: Daemonkin community++

[Dragonlover]

Idle musing sparked by Shred's post: has anyone managed to use the Charnel Cohort and have it actually be relevant? I just feels like a massive point sink to me, and the one time my mate tried it he wasn't impressed.

 

Dragonlover

[incinerator950]

I'll take that as a no then.

[Khornestar]

I'm debating getting Demonkin to cover book costs and was wondering if it would be worth making a marine focused army using the rules, or if I should just stick to Crimson Laughter/Vanilla?

 

That also means I'll need help with list building as I don't want to run certain things, but I have to take my nap before my day shift.

 

Personally the only power armored unit I have any interest in using is bikers, specifically in a Gorepack. CSM, Berzerkers, and Possessed are all very underwhelming to me. Plus, in the fluff of my army the only real mortals are the lords, bikers, and cultists hordes. There really aren't any foot soldiers other than squishies. 

 

If it can't move 12" and charge I don't want anything to do with it, unless it's for the mandatory troop tax.

 

Plenty of people feel otherwise. In my CSM army I really enjoy playing CSM units with close combat weapons, and they'd be just as effective in a Daemonkin army - which is to say not very, but decent enough for funsies. Blood Tithe buffs can put them over the top in certain situations, and against most casual opponents who aren't playing Necrons/Tau/Eldar/SM Formations they're fine. The Blood Host Detachment/Slaughtercult seems fairly popular. Some people make good use of Possessed. I have yet to use it.

 

That said I don't really play much these days, more collecting/modelling until I have the time to play. It's more for looks than tabletop functionality, but I prefer to play an army that looks cool and fits a theme with my Daemonkin.

[Bodacious2182]

Idle musing sparked by Shred's post: has anyone managed to use the Charnel Cohort and have it actually be relevant? I just feels like a massive point sink to me, and the one time my mate tried it he wasn't impressed.

 

Dragonlover

 

 

I run the Charnel Cohort in this list.  I wanted to run bloodcrushers without having to run a CAD or silly terminators.  I know a lot of people don't care for bloodcrushers but I can tolerate them.  A large unit size is a must.  Getting FNP from the blood tithe is another big part of their suitability.    Re-rolling hits and str6 on the charge makes them a pretty impressive hammer.  I don't care if they get focused 'cause that means my other stuff is going to get there and kill whatever it is that killed them.

 

I would rather have the hounds in a gorepack but I can't fit everything I want in.  I have other lists without crushers that runs a gorepack.  In this list the hounds are used to tie things up or take up space to prevent pods from getting close.

 

The -2 leadership on fear tests really helps against xenos.  

 

 

 

As for power armored things.  I really like them.  The blood tithe makes them flexible.  Rhino rush has a new spin on it thanks to not caring if they die and having comparatively poor shooting options.  I flat mine out as far as they can and hope they die for the easy blood tithe.  Then double tap and when able to charge use the slaughtercult's bonus to give them furious charge and FNP.  They will do plenty of damage.  And once again they further the target priority misdirection goals..

[BetterOffShred]

Well my Khorne Lord on Juggernaut finecast model arrived today (with Kaldor Draigo, but you guys don't care about him..)  and I have to say it's a pretty good sculpt.  Both arms are separated at the shoulder pad area,  so magnetization of different weapons is a cinch.  The shield arm is going into the bits box for use later maybe on a bloodletter model or something cool.  The juggernaut is just what I expected, one leg is part of the cast, the other three glue on.   The finecast on this particular model is better than the last ones I've had, but it's still going to need some greenstuff in a few spots.  

 

My one complaint with this model is that the "axe" he comes with standard is so lackluster and tiny that there's no way I'm using it for my Lord.  I think I'm going to order up the wrathmonger kit and use some of the tasty looking axes to make him a little more ferocious.   Then I can use leftover CSM bits to make the 5 wraithmongers into juiced up Berserkers. 

I'm planning on magnetizing two arms and wrists so I can give him powerfist, claws, axes, power sword/axe, basically all the CC options. 

 

I'm also thinking about grinding off the fantasy style shoulder pad and fitting a more proper Shoulder pad with some more CSM feel to it, and then of course fitting a "backpack" over his pelt cape.     I'll get some pics up and going as soon as it is worth looking at.

 

-Brett

[Khornestar]

I think your ideas/modifications will make it a much better lord in the end. I especially agree about the axe. So unimpressive.

[Khar'vros the Crazed]

Has anyone tried the Fist of Khorne formation yet?

[thraxdown]

Lately I've been running 2 CAD's with four heralds carrying a loci of wrath to give out mucho hatred, and it's been working fairly well.  Use cultists to grab objectives in my deployment zone, and just letting the heralds and their hound or bloodcrusher friends go crazy.

[incinerator950]

 

 

I'm debating getting Demonkin to cover book costs and was wondering if it would be worth making a marine focused army using the rules, or if I should just stick to Crimson Laughter/Vanilla?

 

That also means I'll need help with list building as I don't want to run certain things, but I have to take my nap before my day shift.

Personally the only power armored unit I have any interest in using is bikers, specifically in a Gorepack. CSM, Berzerkers, and Possessed are all very underwhelming to me. Plus, in the fluff of my army the only real mortals are the lords, bikers, and cultists hordes. There really aren't any foot soldiers other than squishies.

 

If it can't move 12" and charge I don't want anything to do with it, unless it's for the mandatory troop tax.

 

Plenty of people feel otherwise. In my CSM army I really enjoy playing CSM units with close combat weapons, and they'd be just as effective in a Daemonkin army - which is to say not very, but decent enough for funsies. Blood Tithe buffs can put them over the top in certain situations, and against most casual opponents who aren't playing Necrons/Tau/Eldar/SM Formations they're fine. The Blood Host Detachment/Slaughtercult seems fairly popular. Some people make good use of Possessed. I have yet to use it.

 

That said I don't really play much these days, more collecting/modelling until I have the time to play. It's more for looks than tabletop functionality, but I prefer to play an army that looks cool and fits a theme with my Daemonkin.

The problem I have is I'm looking for those alternate lists, but I can't be bothered to look for them because no one talks about them. Shaking a stick at a minority in a niche gaming market is like telling people you like Tank mecha in Armored Core, you get funny looks and no one has any idea how to be helpful.

 

I seriously tried looking for Prophet Lord builds (unrelated) and I still can't find anything searching, especially because my topic from last year is still on the front page of the google search.

 

Demonkin is primarily for demons (durrr), because they made it specifically to sell new Khorne demon models. I find it more difficult to pretend I want to play the rules or Khorne, but Chaos Marines suck and the vanilla dex is bottom tier without fw, allies, or moron opponents.

[Adra'Melek]

There's only been one daemon model released recently. But I must admit I don't really see your point. Are you saying you have no interest in Khorne and just want to try a find a way of running a CSM army which is more powerful than one from the CSM codex? If so, I think you're going up a blind alley I'm afraid. The only good stuff I've read about the Daemonkin is the fusion of daemons and mortals, and Khorne nuts. Which doesn't seem to be what you're looking for.

[incinerator950]

Not really, now just finally reading the dex. I would be willing to use the Marines or Zerkers despite the inefficiency, and investing in Fleshhounds isn't terrible since I have so much crap to use from generic marines.

 

I would have to retune the Wartorn backstory to a demonkin warhost like The Harvest, or follow Kol's/Tenebris' nagging and make a Pyre demonkin sub-host.

[BetterOffShred]

So Ive been building a list to play for funsies against my buddy, and It's composed of a Slaughtercult with a Charnel Cohort and a Gorepack.. I was kind of wondering if I could get some input on Daemons princes in the Daemonkin book.  I have a real nice oldschool prince I just put wings on last night (pics incoming) and magnetized axes and swords in his right hand.  On paper it looks pretty beast-mode, but I'm curious how it works out in practice.  Being my Lord on juggernaut is taking the EW armor, his mileage may vary I'm guessing.

 

-Brett

[Adra'Melek]

Just for interest

 

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RbknW6pJpeU/Vdb2zCiVtBI/AAAAAAAAApI/GXN_ny-SmXo/s2048-no/IMG_1721.JPG

[Slayer le Boucher]

Played a  2 Vs 2 game last night, 2 KDK Vs 1 Tsons+T-deamons and an Ork.

 

Long story short, 2++ rerollable should not exist and we won 8 to 6 ( yeah Sacred number!!)

 

the Tsons guy used Arhiman with 3 squads of Rubrics and 2 Oblits and a Disc Herald with screamers with a big unit of Horrors.

 

Tarpitted the Screamerstar with 3 of my hounds units, until the end of the game, he managed to make me loose some hounds, and even though the sheer number of attacks i dished at him he managed to save them all.

 

now you would say its nothing remarkable with a 2++ reroll, but its the kind of guy that usually when he makes 5 2+ saves, he rolls 4 1's, even on the reroll, but last night, it was a good night for him since he din't fail a single save on those screamers.

 

Now with this tarpitted ,we slowly but surely took out his Rubrics squads, took out Arhiman and the Sorceror with my Zerkers+Skulltaker and  my CSM squad that attacked with 5 A each(the usual 4 +1 from the Blood tithe).

 

The one who lost the most units in the game was the ork player, he took the brunt of 80 Bloodletters( my team mate had a full Deamon KDK, except for the Gorepack Bikes, the Juggerlord and a Mauler).

[Adra'Melek]

Blood really is flowing. Just finished my first game with Daemonkin against an opponents first game with Space Wolves. Neither of us play much.

 

1000 points CAD

 

I took Jugger Lord with Goredrinker (big mistake because I'm an idiot)

8 berserkers

11 cultists

Maulerfiend

3 bikers with 2x meltas

8 bloodletters with herald (reserves).

 

He took wolf Lord with frost axe thing

2 units of grey hunters (drop pods)

Long fangs (3 ML and MM) (drop pod)

Dreadnought with claw and lascannons.

 

maelstrom of war mission. I started off pretty stupid in that I had my lord in the bikes and they charged the dreadnought, which they couldn't really hurt. Lord was stuck in combat for 4 turns before he eventually got killed by S10 hit. Cultists were destroyed with one survived who broke and legged it off the table (stopping me from getting a BT point, I think). Berserkers charged grey hunters with the Lord got killed to 2 men by shooting. Maulerfiend just got in too. Champion of the berserkers killed a guy in challenge and then killed a few more. Ends up with just the Maulerfiend left standing. 2nd unit of grey hunters dropped in behind him. Blood letters deep striked off the table (11"! Opponent rolled hit for every one of his) so got stuck off in the corner. I eventually got blood tithe up to 5 and brought in another unit of bloodletters. These guys did pretty well, placed right, next turn charged and wiped out the long fangs getting me 2 vp from cards. Ended up with a single unit of bloodletters ( 4 left), he had about 6 GH and the dreadnought. And the game ended as a draw (9 to 9). I had another 5 BT points as was going to bring on another unit of bloodletters. Edit: Maulerfiend kicked behind, undone by a lucky plasma shot making it immobilised just before being charged by GH with krak grenades.

 

Overall it was a fun game. Didn't generate anywhere near enough BT for feel no pain to be worthwhile. I think in smaller games the extra unit is a massive bonus. Very stupid charging the dreadnought but I got excited and carried away. Drop pods have objective secured was really annoying for this mission as well. I would have easily won if he didn't keep claiming objectives with them.

 

Edit: had second game. The first was an attempt at a beachhead on the planet and as it was a draw we played the second game as a space wolf hold out until reinforcements came. He had 500 (dreadnought, grey hunters and long fangs) points starting, I had 1000. At turn three he could start rolling for 750 points (Thunderwolves and a gunship thing) of reserves. He won by having one of his characters in one corner. I used the same army as before.

 

I charged everything up. Jugger Lord flew into the hunters with the bikes. The bikes got killed but they wiped out the unit. Lord had Goredrinker and caused 6 wounds at this point. Maulerfiend ripped the dreadnought apart (made 3 daemon saves from various heavy weapons). Lord and cultists finished off the long fangs to give the Lord instant death (but only had one wound). I kind of won at this point but we decided to bring on the reserves anyway. Flyer exploded the Maulerfiend with one shot. I had gathered 8 BT points so exchanged the one wound Lord for a bloodthirster. He had the preferred enemy trait which is great as I roll a lot of ones. Bloodthirster and bloodletters charged the Thunderwolves and 3++ is ridiculous. BT only managed to kill 2. BT got killed by his Wolf Lord but they held them up long enough for me to win again. Generally pretty good fun again. Definitely giving the Lord an axe of Khorne as well as Goredrinker. Unwieldy was a real problem. Just playing WYSIWYG at the moment.

[Slayer le Boucher]

So i wanted your opinion guys on something.

 

I had an argument with 2 other players about the way i use Goredrinker.

 

I usually use Goredrinker and a Axe of Khorne, since the rule of Goredrinker says that the unsaved wounds caused by the melee attacks of the character, the character then gets +1S etc.

 

So i usually was striking with the Axe at initiative, got the kills, just like the rule says( since nowhere does it says that the kills has to be done with goredrinker) and wuld get the buffs.

 

Until now, everyone agreed with this.

 

But 2 players came up to me and said that i used the thing wrong.

 

Their argument was that i cannot use the special rule of one weapon while striking with another weapon, and in normal circumstances i agree, but the rules of Goredrinker, doesn't say that you must use it, and even so, the bonus you get are upgrades made to the model directly, it says that the character gets +1Str, Rampage etc, not " the attacks made with this weapon are resolved with +1Str...", they used the Burning blade from the SM relics as a counter exemple, saying that the weapon give Soulfire and blinding only to the blade attacks, and you cannot have those rules when you use a different weapon.

 

And with this i agree, and it doesn't change the fact that Goredrinker rule, doesn't work that way.

 

The example of the burning blade is a bad one IMO, because BlInding for exemple, says in its rule, that units Hit with a weapon that has this rule, gets blinded.

They also used Shred from the LClaws, wich is also a bad exemple since it says that you reroll to wound roll, wich neither of wich you do with Goredrinker.

 

See they keep telling me, that while i certainly can accumulate points/kills with any melee attacks from the Lord, they say that i need to be using the weapon to have the bonuses.

 

In their opinion the Blood feast( not sure if it is the name of the rule in english) rule, can only be used when i use theweapon to strike, so i can only gain the bonuses granted to my Lord when i strike with Goredrinker, so if i strike with something else, my Lord forgets that he has +1S, or rampage.

 

And here is the flaw with their logic, if i have to use Goredrinker to get the bonuses, then i will never have them..., Why?, simply because if we go with their arguments above( blinding and shred), i can never have those.

 

Blinding activate when you hit something, so you have to obviously use the weapon that gives this rule, the same with shred, but Goredrinkers rule only activate AFTER you have used it, since the rule tell you to keep track of all unsaved wounds you made, so it does mean that you have allready made the Hits and the Wounds, and this is the only moment of a fight that you use a weapon.

 

When your opponent makes his save rolls, you DON'T USE the weapon at this time, you've allready done it, so if i'm to follow what they say, by strict raw, i can never and will never have any bonuses from Gordrinker.

 

I dunno if i was clear enough, but thats how things stand for me, whats your opinion?

[Adra'Melek]

I think you're reaching with regards to your last point. You are using the weapon when they make saves as you use its AP. However, when compared to shred, etc, it doesn't state "weapon with this special rule" etc, so there is an argument for applying it to all weapons. The main rules say that you can't mix and match "abilities" from weapons but it's not clear if the special rules count. Are there any other examples of weapon special rules that always apply? Things like adamantium will or anything like that?

 

After discussing it with my brother (only person I play against) we've agreed that you have to cause the wounds with Goredrinker but the benefits apply to any weapon. This isn't claimed to be the 'correct' interpretTion, just the one we think is most reasonable.

[UlsanGamer]

I don't think there is a perfect answer to this which is why I sent an faq to gw. No points for guessing how that's gone.

 

So I have been taking the conservative approach that the special rule is on goredrinker so only works if you use goredrinker. Keep in mind if you have a lightning claw and powerfist and choose to use the lighting claw you aren't unwieldy and similarly if you choose to use the powerfist you don't gain shred. Which makes me feel that special rules don't transfer to other weapons.

 

Also if you read the fluff piece with goredrinker's rules as an indication of gw's intent it appears that the weapon itself is supposed to be used. Though I understand that fluff is not a perfect indication of rules.

 

Ultimately it needs an FAQ and since I only play friendly games I've chosen not to use goredrinker at all.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Yes i know that, my point is that it is the BEARER of the weapon that gains +1STR, Rampage etc, NOT the attacks made with the Goredrinker.

 

Its a bit like the Chaos Boons, where the model gets upgrades.

 

their point is that to be able to use the bonuses that the model gains( and not the weapon), i must hit with it, but the rule of Goredrinker doesn't work like shred, or blind or anything else, since those rules specifically says that they work on To Hit or To Wound rolls, so it is obvious that you use the weapon that has those rules.

 

But goredrinker gives you bonuses AFTER you have used it, because from what i'm aware off, when your opponent makes his saves, and take out the casualties, you are not doing anything.

 

So if i had to apply the rules the way they want me to, at what moment do i get the benefits of my Artifact?...

 

When i use it?, aka on the To hit and to wound rolls?, nope, the rule works after that, when i don't use the weapon, and thats the difference with other weapons.

 

if i apply what they say, then i can never use any of the Boons it gives me, wich doesn't make any sense.

[Adra'Melek]

You get the benefits from unsaved wounds. Goredrinker can cause those wounds. Just because you didn't roll the save doesn't mean that Goredrinker didn't cause the unsaved wound.

 

However, it also clearly doesn't have the "attack with weapons with this special rule..." Etc that shred has. So it's not clear.

[Bodacious2182]

The language is pretty clear as far as the benefits for after the points are generated.  I would say the language is clear that no matter where the attacks originate that they generate points, but I can also see how that might not have been intended.  With the way the rules are worded goredrinker is just another artifact that gives benefits, much like the skull helm, and happens to be a weapon.  

 

Those guys are just salty and probably envious.  I would compromise on how the points are generated, but not on the benefits given by the points.   Codexes can't really be compared to other codexes like that and trump the rule book.  The codex is the final word.

[Khornestar]

The language is pretty clear as far as the benefits for after the points are generated.  I would say the language is clear that no matter where the attacks originate that they generate points, but I can also see how that might not have been intended.  With the way the rules are worded goredrinker is just another artifact that gives benefits, much like the skull helm, and happens to be a weapon.  

 

Those guys are just salty and probably envious.  I would compromise on how the points are generated, but not on the benefits given by the points.   Codexes can't really be compared to other codexes like that and trump the rule book.  The codex is the final word.

 

Totally agree.

 

Plus, the writers of the rules make some ... interesting, shall we say, choices with wording? It's nice to assume we as players know what they intend, but by no means accurate unless GW can be assed to write a FAQ or erratum for the issue. To me, that means we go with RAW, followed by a roll-off if the other player really has a problem with it. IMO it's worth the roll off just to shut 'em up and continue with the game.

[TheHyperion]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312535-the-bloodspitters-khorne-daemonkin-wardband/?p=4153935

Had my first 40k game today! Let me know what you guys think about my new planned color scheme!

Thanks

~Sapphon

[Scribe]

I personally think it runs counter to how GW writes most other rules, and since they dont like to give Chaos anything good, its likely an error.

 

I dont run it myself as I think theres a bit of cheddar to the whole thing and really dont care enough to win that way, when I can just win by brute force, or lose in style. :p

[Adra'Melek]

The main rules also state that if you have more than one weapon you don't mix abilities. Is Blood Feast a weapon ability that can't be mixed or a passive ability that always applies? It's certainly not clear because it lacks the definition of Shred, but also doesn't clearly overrule multiple weapons rules in the main book. I don't know if it's already been done but perhaps a thread should be made in the rules section. Those guys live of tearing stuff like this apart.

 

Edit: just won the third game. 3 objectives in the KDK deployment. In theory each generates a BLood tithe if controlled by friendly unit (although generally forgot about that). His Psyker got killed in turn 2 by phlegm. Juggerlord and bikes charged unit of GH. His Psyker had cast the 4++ and rerollable misses spells. The GH killed the bikes and took the Lord down to 1W. Maulerfiend smashed into a razorback and exploded it, releasing the long fangs. Drop pod of GH dropped in my end zone. Shot up some cultists (4 units of 8). Charged the GH in drop pod with Berserkers, and 2 cultist units. They ended up all getting killed (forgot about fearless on berserkers). Flier came on, smoked the Maulerfiend, then smoked the soul grinder. Lord charged into the long fangs (taking 3 sniper hits, a Melta and lascannon to the face but shrugging all of them off (3 rolls of 1 to wound for high S low AP weapons)) and wiped them all out (up to 6 wounds for Goredrinker). Next turn the flier takes his last wound. However a Bloodthrister arrives from a cultist champion, and gets charged by a unit of Wolf guard terminators (killing 4 of them in one turn). Very bloody.mi end up with a summoned Bloodthrister, a summoned unit of bloodletters and 2 cultists. He has the flier and a unit of scouts. I win as I control 2 objectives. Another cracker. So 2 wins, 1 draw, 0 loses so far. Playing a 1000 point Maelstrom of War game in a minute. I playing only daemons and daemon engines for this one (all the mortals are now dead but the barrier to the warp has been weakened!