[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Baluc]

Pale hunter would be much better idea we got outflank/scout for taking the RoW.

All 4 RoW from Inferno are a hot mess.

[betrayer41]

Ok so i have a question or two.

 

I am VERY very new to the gaming and list building side of things. Know absolutely nothing about it, so i hope this doesn;'t come across rude or push anyone's buttons. BUT if pale hunter is such hot garbage why are yall putting so much effort an frustration into making it "work" Or when people say that we have good rules, why come back at them with "make a competitive list with pale huner then"? If its really that bad why don't we just drop it? Again honest questions not trying to provoke.

 

I guess the second part is, I am trying to pretty much build my first list ever and have been coming to this thread for help. Is there an average ish semi competitive list to start trying to work towards?

[Purge the Daemon]

Ok so i have a question or two.

 

I am VERY very new to the gaming and list building side of things. Know absolutely nothing about it, so i hope this doesn;'t come across rude or push anyone's buttons. BUT if pale hunter is such hot garbage why are yall putting so much effort an frustration into making it "work" Or when people say that we have good rules, why come back at them with "make a competitive list with pale huner then"? If its really that bad why don't we just drop it? Again honest questions not trying to provoke.

 

I guess the second part is, I am trying to pretty much build my first list ever and have been coming to this thread for help. Is there an average ish semi competitive list to start trying to work towards?

I think the main reason is we are all wolf players or at least most of us are. We also all really want to try make our armies unique to the Vlka Fenryka, instead of just playing a generic Legion list with +1ws.

 

Realistically the best way to be competitive is just use the strong generic Legion things such as quad mortars, Javelins etc. Most of our unique stuff isn't nearly worth the points to field over these things (not all are useless though I'd say priests of Fenris are actually good at least speakers are, though they really should have I5 not 4...)

[Nova_chron]

I've written pale hunters off for now as I do not own enough variety to make a list I like with it. Been fiddling with bloodied claw ideas when time allows

[Baluc]

@betrayer41

 

I've written of Pale Hunter myself. Its probably fine at around 1000-1500 points though. So if you are getting started at low point games it is actually pretty good since it will make outflank a more reliable tactic. And, you aren't likely to "need" 3 heavy support.

 

Also it cuts out some of the most expensive single models in the game so again not to bad at low point games where you can overwhelm people with bodies.

 

At larger point games 10 marines can evaporate in one shooting phase with some room for overkill.

 

I would actually suggest you don't take a RoW at all until you have a large diverse model collection and some more experience with the standard SW restrictions.

[sturguard]

Ok so i have a question or two.

 

I am VERY very new to the gaming and list building side of things. Know absolutely nothing about it, so i hope this doesn;'t come across rude or push anyone's buttons. BUT if pale hunter is such hot garbage why are yall putting so much effort an frustration into making it "work" Or when people say that we have good rules, why come back at them with "make a competitive list with pale huner then"? If its really that bad why don't we just drop it? Again honest questions not trying to provoke.

 

I guess the second part is, I am trying to pretty much build my first list ever and have been coming to this thread for help. Is there an average ish semi competitive list to start trying to work towards?

 

Betrayer41- I started my SW collection in 1990. I have been waiting years for Inferno to drop. With the direction 40k has gone, I have effectively stopped playing that game, so I have just my Space Wolves. I am a SW player through and through, so don't you think I would actually like to use rules that differentiate SW from just normal marines painted blue? I have read all the Horus Hersey Novels as well as the Black Library books associated with the Space Wolves, I want an army that operates like the fluff. I want to use SW specific units, but I also want to have an opportunity for them to be competitive as well. Now, they don't need to be tops, but as many folks have pointed out, the rules seem good until you try to make a list that takes advantage of them and stacks well- you just cant do it and have any sort of list that looks and feels SW.

 

I played Alpha Legion for awhile - while waiting for SW to come out. Do you know how easy it was to layer their Mutable Tactics, with Skorr's rules and individual unit rules? It was a piece of cake.

 

Look at the 1K Sons Row war. Are Scarab Occult terminators good- heck yes. Is Magnus good- yep. Lets make a Rite of War where the terminators get better (they get deep strike, they get rerolling of their power dice) and you can take Magnus.

 

Now look at Pale Hunter. Hit and Run- fantastic, wait, terminators cant hit and run, wait, I cant take drop pods to get Russ on the board early to make use of hit and run. So exactly what units are going to use hit and run? Grey Slayers with no HQ (because they would be in a rhino right and the min sized squad is 10)? I havent seen too many combats in 30k where a tac squad could actually use hit and run unless it was fighting another tac squad. If Grey Slayers come up against an elite squad (Say terminators) they will be destroyed (although if you spend alot of points on them they might take some termies with them) there wont be anything to hit and run with. The Death Sworn have no invul save, so if you run them against an elite unit they will probably all die (they might also kill the unit they assaulted but again, what is left to hit and run?). The +1 with reserves you can get with a Damocles rhino already.

 

And although Speakers are good and Hvarl is good, SW have to pay for so many characters (who don't always help out any units) it affects what they can actually put on the table.

 

Personally, I think if you allowed the Anvillus Drop Pod and Kharybdis in the Pale Hunter and allowed Tartaros Termies to hit and run it would be a decent compromise. A SW player would have to give up all their FA slots and their only heavy slot just to put down 4 pods (in addition to paying almost 600 pts for those pods)- when you add the 500 pts for 3 HQ choices you have already used half your 2500 pt list up but at least you could take advantage of some of the rules.

 

+1 to combat res is meh. On any important unit in 30k you'll have a reroll on ldr tests or be stubborn or immune to them.

 

Again, I have no problem with folks showing me where I am wrong, do it, post a competitive list that has the look of a SW army I want to see folks putting those lists on the table, but the problem is people just throw down responses like "SW rules are great" then never back it up with any sort of meaningful proof. Obviously our metas are all different, something that works in your basement with your friends isn't necessarily competitive, even though it works for you in those games.

[Purge the Daemon]

 

Ok so i have a question or two.

 

I am VERY very new to the gaming and list building side of things. Know absolutely nothing about it, so i hope this doesn;'t come across rude or push anyone's buttons. BUT if pale hunter is such hot garbage why are yall putting so much effort an frustration into making it "work" Or when people say that we have good rules, why come back at them with "make a competitive list with pale huner then"? If its really that bad why don't we just drop it? Again honest questions not trying to provoke.

 

I guess the second part is, I am trying to pretty much build my first list ever and have been coming to this thread for help. Is there an average ish semi competitive list to start trying to work towards?

 

 

Betrayer41- I started my SW collection in 1990. I have been waiting years for Inferno to drop. With the direction 40k has gone, I have effectively stopped playing that game, so I have just my Space Wolves. I am a SW player through and through, so don't you think I would actually like to use rules that differentiate SW from just normal marines painted blue? I have read all the Horus Hersey Novels as well as the Black Library books associated with the Space Wolves, I want an army that operates like the fluff. I want to use SW specific units, but I also want to have an opportunity for them to be competitive as well. Now, they don't need to be tops, but as many folks have pointed out, the rules seem good until you try to make a list that takes advantage of them and stacks well- you just cant do it and have any sort of list that looks and feels SW.

 

I played Alpha Legion for awhile - while waiting for SW to come out. Do you know how easy it was to layer their Mutable Tactics, with Skorr's rules and individual unit rules? It was a piece of cake.

 

Look at the 1K Sons Row war. Are Scarab Occult terminators good- heck yes. Is Magnus good- yep. Lets make a Rite of War where the terminators get better (they get deep strike, they get rerolling of their power dice) and you can take Magnus.

 

Now look at Pale Hunter. Hit and Run- fantastic, wait, terminators cant hit and run, wait, I cant take drop pods to get Russ on the board early to make use of hit and run. So exactly what units are going to use hit and run? Grey Slayers with no HQ (because they would be in a rhino right and the min sized squad is 10)? I havent seen too many combats in 30k where a tac squad could actually use hit and run unless it was fighting another tac squad. If Grey Slayers come up against an elite squad (Say terminators) they will be destroyed (although if you spend alot of points on them they might take some termies with them) there wont be anything to hit and run with. The Death Sworn have no invul save, so if you run them against an elite unit they will probably all die (they might also kill the unit they assaulted but again, what is left to hit and run?). The +1 with reserves you can get with a Damocles rhino already.

 

And although Speakers are good and Hvarl is good, SW have to pay for so many characters (who don't always help out any units) it affects what they can actually put on the table.

 

Personally, I think if you allowed the Anvillus Drop Pod and Kharybdis in the Pale Hunter and allowed Tartaros Termies to hit and run it would be a decent compromise. A SW player would have to give up all their FA slots and their only heavy slot just to put down 4 pods (in addition to paying almost 600 pts for those pods)- when you add the 500 pts for 3 HQ choices you have already used half your 2500 pt list up but at least you could take advantage of some of the rules.

 

+1 to combat res is meh. On any important unit in 30k you'll have a reroll on ldr tests or be stubborn or immune to them.

 

Again, I have no problem with folks showing me where I am wrong, do it, post a competitive list that has the look of a SW army I want to see folks putting those lists on the table, but the problem is people just throw down responses like "SW rules are great" then never back it up with any sort of meaningful proof. Obviously our metas are all different, something that works in your basement with your friends isn't necessarily competitive, even though it works for you in those games.

Sturguard I'm defintely sharing the same points of view as you I think this is really the proper summary of wolves they look really good until you try apply the rules, and then realise you just land up with a hot mess or it feels like pre inferno generic rules.

[Runefyre]

Ok so i have a question or two.

 

I am VERY very new to the gaming and list building side of things. Know absolutely nothing about it, so i hope this doesn;'t come across rude or push anyone's buttons. BUT if pale hunter is such hot garbage why are yall putting so much effort an frustration into making it "work" Or when people say that we have good rules, why come back at them with "make a competitive list with pale huner then"? If its really that bad why don't we just drop it? Again honest questions not trying to provoke.

 

I guess the second part is, I am trying to pretty much build my first list ever and have been coming to this thread for help. Is there an average ish semi competitive list to start trying to work towards?

As others have iterated, we all want to play Wolves the way the fluff describes. And I think FW NAILED the description and theme of the Wolves RoWs. We have one that is more cunning (Pale Hunters) and one that shows off our ferocious side (bloodied claw).

 

But when you look at the rules execution for Pale Hunters, you find out we're a strictly worse White Scars Chogorian Brotherhood. The Scars can do EVERYTHING the Wolves can do, but better.

 

Bloodied Claws is actually quite good imo. The only real change that needs to happen is access to Warrior's Mettle to our Independent Characters as there's no point in investing huge points into large squads of Grey Slayer if we can't even attach mandatory support HQ's without losing THE special rule that makes them work.

[betrayer41]

Thanks fellas, i greatly appreciate the detailed responses. These type of responses definitely help me understand the frustration and a bit as to what is going on. IT will probably help me understand a bit more once inferno actually arrives.

[Runefyre]

So, now that we've got (most) of our grievances plainly explained, maybe we can move on and work with what we've got until FW changes something? I'm tired of being salty all the time.

 

Anyway, here is yet another Pale Hunters list. It's a variation of the MSU build I proposed a page or two back.

 

2500 points (Pale Hunters)

 

Hvarl Red-blade

 

Command squad (tartaros terminator armour, phobos DT)

 

Squeaker of the Dead

 

(2x) Grey Slayer squads (1x power weapon, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, Rhino DT)

 

Veteran squad (10 dudes, 2x missile launchers, AA, power weapon, Rhino DT) (Marksmen tactics)

 

(2x) Veteran squads (5x combi-weapons, AA, power weapon, Rhino DT) (Machine destroyers or Marksmen tactics)

 

(2x) xiphon pattern interceptors (stock)

 

Typhon heavy siege tank

 

 

Thoughts?

 

There's alot of outflank potential with the Marksmen vets and Red-blade and some decent fire support from the typhon and xiphons.

 

Also no lack of scoring units.

[Nova_chron]

So, now that we've got (most) of our grievances plainly explained, maybe we can move on and work with what we've got until FW changes something? I'm tired of being salty all the time.

 

Anyway, here is yet another Pale Hunters list. It's a variation of the MSU build I proposed a page or two back.

 

2500 points (Pale Hunters)

 

Hvarl Red-blade

 

Command squad (tartaros terminator armour, phobos DT)

 

Squeaker of the Dead

 

(2x) Grey Slayer squads (1x power weapon, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, Rhino DT)

 

Veteran squad (10 dudes, 2x missile launchers, AA, power weapon, Rhino DT) (Marksmen tactics)

 

(2x) Veteran squads (5x combi-weapons, AA, power weapon, Rhino DT) (Machine destroyers or Marksmen tactics)

 

(2x) xiphon pattern interceptors (stock)

 

Typhon heavy siege tank

 

 

Thoughts?

 

There's alot of outflank potential with the Marksmen vets and Red-blade and some decent fire support from the typhon and xiphons.

 

Also no lack of scoring units.

Looks solid but I'm still grinning at squeaker of the dead after work I'll do a more in depth look

[betrayer41]

So, now that we've got (most) of our grievances plainly explained, maybe we can move on and work with what we've got until FW changes something? I'm tired of being salty all the time.

 

Anyway, here is yet another Pale Hunters list. It's a variation of the MSU build I proposed a page or two back.

 

2500 points (Pale Hunters)

 

Hvarl Red-blade

 

Command squad (tartaros terminator armour, phobos DT)

 

Squeaker of the Dead

 

(2x) Grey Slayer squads (1x power weapon, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, Rhino DT)

 

Veteran squad (10 dudes, 2x missile launchers, AA, power weapon, Rhino DT) (Marksmen tactics)

 

(2x) Veteran squads (5x combi-weapons, AA, power weapon, Rhino DT) (Machine destroyers or Marksmen tactics)

 

(2x) xiphon pattern interceptors (stock)

 

Typhon heavy siege tank

 

 

Thoughts?

 

There's alot of outflank potential with the Marksmen vets and Red-blade and some decent fire support from the typhon and xiphons.

 

Also no lack of scoring units.

Now that is a list even i could build! If i get two interceptors which i was looking at anyways

[Purge the Daemon]

So, now that we've got (most) of our grievances plainly explained, maybe we can move on and work with what we've got until FW changes something? I'm tired of being salty all the time.

 

Anyway, here is yet another Pale Hunters list. It's a variation of the MSU build I proposed a page or two back.

 

2500 points (Pale Hunters)

 

Hvarl Red-blade

 

Command squad (tartaros terminator armour, phobos DT)

 

Squeaker of the Dead

 

(2x) Grey Slayer squads (1x power weapon, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, Rhino DT)

 

Veteran squad (10 dudes, 2x missile launchers, AA, power weapon, Rhino DT) (Marksmen tactics)

 

(2x) Veteran squads (5x combi-weapons, AA, power weapon, Rhino DT) (Machine destroyers or Marksmen tactics)

 

(2x) xiphon pattern interceptors (stock)

 

Typhon heavy siege tank

 

 

Thoughts?

 

There's alot of outflank potential with the Marksmen vets and Red-blade and some decent fire support from the typhon and xiphons.

 

Also no lack of scoring units.

Few things I'd try to tweak.

 

Xiphons really should have ground tracking auguries. Starfing run is just such a huge improvement, especially with the low volume of Fire.

 

I still don't think a command squad counts as one of the HQ choices, so frankly I suggest taking another choice. Though if your group allows it I guess go for it but I'm sure it'll be FAQ'D away.

 

You defintely have scoring units 5/2500 is a lot of scoring.

 

The typhon is always good but armoured ceramite I'd highly recommend.

 

Possibly you are a bit light on anti tank but I'd probably have to take a step back and look again to really assess that.

[Runefyre]

 

-snip-

Squeaker of the Dead

-snip-

Looks solid but I'm still grinning at squeaker of the dead after work I'll do a more in depth look

 

Haha didn't catch that 

 

Squeaker of the Dead....haha

 

 

Regarding the list, perhaps I could strip some combi-weapons to pay for GTA's for the xiphons. Not sure were I'd shave the points to pay for AC for the typhon. I think that's just a risk, it's still quite a good unit.

 

Regarding the command squads, at the moment I have RaW on my side, but I wouldn't be surprised if FW changed that. That would suck as that's another 100 or so points I have to find room for.....

[sturguard]

 

So, now that we've got (most) of our grievances plainly explained, maybe we can move on and work with what we've got until FW changes something? I'm tired of being salty all the time.

 

Anyway, here is yet another Pale Hunters list. It's a variation of the MSU build I proposed a page or two back.

 

2500 points (Pale Hunters)

 

Hvarl Red-blade

 

Command squad (tartaros terminator armour, phobos DT)

 

Squeaker of the Dead

 

(2x) Grey Slayer squads (1x power weapon, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, Rhino DT)

 

Veteran squad (10 dudes, 2x missile launchers, AA, power weapon, Rhino DT) (Marksmen tactics)

 

(2x) Veteran squads (5x combi-weapons, AA, power weapon, Rhino DT) (Machine destroyers or Marksmen tactics)

 

(2x) xiphon pattern interceptors (stock)

 

Typhon heavy siege tank

 

 

Thoughts?

 

There's alot of outflank potential with the Marksmen vets and Red-blade and some decent fire support from the typhon and xiphons.

 

Also no lack of scoring units.

Few things I'd try to tweak.

 

Xiphons really should have ground tracking auguries. Starfing run is just such a huge improvement, especially with the low volume of Fire.

 

I still don't think a command squad counts as one of the HQ choices, so frankly I suggest taking another choice. Though if your group allows it I guess go for it but I'm sure it'll be FAQ'D away.

 

You defintely have scoring units 5/2500 is a lot of scoring.

 

The typhon is always good but armoured ceramite I'd highly recommend.

 

Possibly you are a bit light on anti tank but I'd probably have to take a step back and look again to really assess that.

 

 

Runefyre, you might be better off with the Bloodied Claw and a Damocles. Again, I dont see any units that can use hit and run- Hvarl and the command squad would be great but they cant. So it looks like really all you'll be using from the Pale Hunter is the +1 reserve. Add in a Damocles for 100 pts (cheaper than adding another SW character anyways) and maybe switch to Bloodied Claw. If you drop the 2 missile launchers (which are really expensive anyways) maybe add in 2 melta or plasma then reduce the combi's you could be there.

 

At least then your Command Squad and Grey Slayers can reroll that one charge you need a game. 

 

Also, (and this isnt just to you, its everyone) why the power weapon on the Grey Slayers instead of a Pfist? I mean the axe and fist strike at the same time, but the fist lets you ID characters and has a chance to pull a HP off a dread. Id pony up the extra 5 pts to upgrade to a pfist and drop a combi (which saves you 5 pts anyways). In fact I would drop both combis. You have so many on the vets, those are points you could save for the Damocles.

 

Wait, Vets arent scoring for you are they, you arent using Russ, so I only see 2 scoring units.

Edited March 8, 2017 by sturguard

[Purge the Daemon]

Vets have implacable advance so they always score for all legions luckily.

[Runefyre]

What's not to like about h&r? It's excellent for getting away from zealot hordes, monstrous creatures and walkers. Anything that increases the survivability of my infantry I worth it imo.

 

And if I were to take a Damocles, that's 100 points not spent on something that can actually fight and hold objectives.

[Baluc]

If you are focused on Pale Hunter in large scale games, I would just advise you to take units that have scout or outflank naturally. The Red-Blade gambit doesn't seem to bring the best out of the legion.

 

Here is a list of units with scout or outflank of the top of my head:

 

Vigilator

Vorax

Vets

Recon Marines

Javalins

Outriders

LR Proteus w/ explorator

[Runefyre]

I'm actually using red blade to scout the slayers and the command squad up the field with the option to instead outflank machine destroyer vets.

 

I think it's pretty solid tactic. Plus red blades warlord trait is quite useful.

[Purge the Daemon]

If you are focused on Pale Hunter in large scale games, I would just advise you to take units that have scout or outflank naturally. The Red-Blade gambit doesn't seem to bring the best out of the legion.

 

Here is a list of units with scout or outflank of the top of my head:

 

Vigilator

Vorax

Vets

Recon Marines

Javalins

Outriders

LR Proteus w/ explorator

The only issue is alot of these things come out of fast attack which is our only anti tank slot in Pale Hunters.

 

I really wanted to try out riders but I can't justify no lighthing and bunch of Javelins especially as points increase

 

Which is really unfortunate as plasma guns out riders with reroll board edge night actually be good then take then with power weapons so they can use the bonus ws.

 

I just wish a priest could join them that would make them good but unfortunately no options other than footslogging for priests.

[betrayer41]

Ok so usually i am super positive mr optimistic, but after reading through this thread again, it seems less like whiny and poor us but more like there is just no synergy at all. Like why the HQ restriction why no drop pods why cant priests get pack or bikes.... Maybe we will get a FAq in our favor?

Edited March 8, 2017 by betrayer41

[sturguard]

What's not to like about h&r? It's excellent for getting away from zealot hordes, monstrous creatures and walkers. Anything that increases the survivability of my infantry I worth it imo.

 

And if I were to take a Damocles, that's 100 points not spent on something that can actually fight and hold objectives.

Hit and Run is great, I just dont think it will ever matter much with GS and Vets- I just dont think there will ever be much left of the unit to actually hit and run with. Hvarl and the command squad could really take advantage of it, so can Russ as they are survivable units but they cant make use of the rule. Id really like to know how many times you actually get to hit and run with the GS/Vet squads. If you build the list, keep me informed. Normally if those squads get caught they get slaughtered at least from what I have seen.

[sturguard]

If you are focused on Pale Hunter in large scale games, I would just advise you to take units that have scout or outflank naturally. The Red-Blade gambit doesn't seem to bring the best out of the legion.

 

Here is a list of units with scout or outflank of the top of my head:

 

Vigilator

Vorax

Vets

Recon Marines

Javalins

Outriders

LR Proteus w/ explorator

 

I had fooled around with Outriders and a Praetor on Bike (as I have bike models) they just seem so expensive for what you get but I could be wrong. Now again if there was a way to put FnP on the unit. What about attack bikes with a Praetor in front? I mean t5 with 2 wounds seems pretty resilient and the Praetor can tank the ap 3 wounds on a 2+, and can pass off the ap 2/ap 1 to the bikes who will only lose 1 wound.

[Purge the Daemon]

 

 

If you are focused on Pale Hunter in large scale games, I would just advise you to take units that have scout or outflank naturally. The Red-Blade gambit doesn't seem to bring the best out of the legion.

 

Here is a list of units with scout or outflank of the top of my head:

 

Vigilator

Vorax

Vets

Recon Marines

Javalins

Outriders

LR Proteus w/ explorator

I had fooled around with Outriders and a Praetor on Bike (as I have bike models) they just seem so expensive for what you get but I could be wrong. Now again if there was a way to put FnP on the unit. What about attack bikes with a Praetor in front? I mean t5 with 2 wounds seems pretty resilient and the Praetor can tank the ap 3 wounds on a 2+, and can pass off the ap 2/ap 1 to the bikes who will only lose 1 wound.

Attack bikes are just a wonky unit. Thier weapon options are pretty mediocre yet they are almost as expensive as Javelins and really don't offer more.

 

Why I like Outriders is plasma guns are always nice especially when you can get them where they need to be and secondly because they can take some combat options so our LA aren't totally wasted.

[Baluc]

I'm actually using red blade to scout the slayers and the command squad up the field with the option to instead outflank machine destroyer vets.

 

I think it's pretty solid tactic. Plus red blades warlord trait is quite useful.

 

This is counter productive, since you can't assault, if you scout. An, and if you are getting assaulted its going to be by something that doesn't care about your counter attack. 

 

You are going to be better off keeping your grey slayers together in your deployment zone out of shooting range. And, getting rid of red-blade since he locks you into the cmd squad route.

 

 

 

 

 

Regular apothecaries can take a bike, so there is that option. I think it really depends on what you want the unit to do. MM Attackbikes, are a good shooting unit, and if you add enough HQs it could also dbl up as a decent combat unit.