IL V - The Halcyon Wardens

[Doctor Perils]

Yeah, Sicarans are Fast Tanks :) What about some kind of battle-cannon armed variant? Or a cannon that can shoot one of two profiles (one anti-tank but not as good at it as the venator, and one anti-infantry) ?

[Grifftofer]

My thoughts were leaning more towards a Rhino chassis variant. Possibly an up armoured Predator with the fast rule, but no sponson options, which can be taken as a squadron. As much as I like the Sicaran chassis it hasn't been made available as a squadron, something I would be wary of doing because of it's effectiveness, which to me makes it less ideal for a unique unit. This is something of a personal preference, but I think the unique unit would be better if it actually were a unit.

 

As for the battle cannon, I think that doing a variant of the Questoris Battle Cannon would make for an interesting unit (probably at most 2 shots rather than 3 though).

[simison]

As much as I love the Sicaran, Grifft brings up a good point. Considering how quickly the Insurrection spreads, I see the Imperium and Alex taking the same approach the US Army did in WW2 with the Sherman: fast, effective, and easy to produce.

 

So, a fast Predator. Perhaps two variants: assault and heavy support. Both fast, the assault variant with Rear armor of 11 and infantry-chewing weapons, while the heavy support has the typical Rear AV 10 and longer-ranged ballistics. I'm thinking about having the FV be only 12 to represent how quickly they are produced. How bad would that be for a Predator?

[Grifftofer]

Well reducing the armour obviously makes them squishier and opens them up to being hurt by S6 weapons from the front, many of which are high rate of fire (culverins and multi lasers for example). A bump on rear armour make them more difficult to kill in melee though as they will be able to ignore attacks from regular marines, so long as they don't have anything increasing their strength (and given recent FAQs to the main rulebook units can now only use 1 grenade per turn in melee with a vehicle). I think that if you were to give different weapon options than the Predator (leave it having unique options like the conversion beamer and plasma executioner) it make for an interesting alternative. You could also potentially play with the squadron size: make it a 2-4 or a 2-5, to emphasise its mass-produced nature.

 

Also as a fast vehicle I would suggest giving it two turret mounted weapons (rather than a twin-linked weapon), but no sponsons (possibly no pintle mount either) so that it can be a mobile vehicle able to move its full 12" each turn and still shoot.

[Doctor Perils]

How about make it pretty much the same as the razorback, but fast, no transport, and a slightly better front armour? So you would in fact have quite a few different weapon options - that could work pretty well with Grifftofer's suggested 2-5 unit size, as it wouldn't be too expensive points-wise

[Nomus Sardauk]

Gentlemen, my dear beloved brothers of the Lost, if I may, might I suggest we seek out the advice of an expert for the concept of this new vehicle? I speak, of course, of Iron Hands Fanatic and his superb Vehicle/Automata Concept Thread over yonder in the Age of Darkness sub-forum. Should he prove willing perhaps he could forge this new chariot of war for the Warmaster's own and maybe others in future?

 

IHF's 30k Vehicle/Automata Concept Thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295603-30k-vehicle-automata-concepts-rhino-advancer/

[Doctor Perils]

Gentlemen, my dear beloved brothers of the Lost, if I may, might I suggest we seek out the advice of an expert for the concept of this new vehicle? I speak, of course, of Iron Hands Fanatic and his superb Vehicle/Automata Concept Thread over yonder in the Age of Darkness sub-forum. Should he prove willing perhaps he could forge this new chariot of war for the Warmaster's own and maybe others in future?

 

IHF's 30k Vehicle/Automata Concept Thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295603-30k-vehicle-automata-concepts-rhino-advancer/

Well, someone (Kelborn?) already asked him if he was interested and I believe he replied he'd got too many things on the way already

[Nomus Sardauk]

He did? Ah I see, that is a shame... :(

[MikhalLeNoir]

Our dear chaplain asked him, but maybe the strange guy in the corner could start a charming offensive^^

[simison]

Pity, he's done some incredible work. 

 

Anyway, back to the fast tank, [Gaja]. We all agree it needs to be Fast. General consensus against sponson weapons, but I like Grifft's idea to have two turrent weapons to take advantage of its Fast rule. Not sure about denying it Pintle-weapons. 

 

After that, getting mixed responses on armour values. 

 

I'm going to wait, until I see a price tag before deciding on the 2-5 potential squadron size. 

 

As it stands, a typical Predator stands at 15 melta bombs. If I leave the front value the same, while increasing the rear armour, that's adding another melta bomb. The lack of sponsons, however, will help keep the price down. 

[MikhalLeNoir]

As you don't take the breacher bikes as official wardens vehicle, should we make them avaiable.for every.legion.and.give them.rules? They habe something^^

[simison]

As you don't take the breacher bikes as official wardens vehicle, should we make them avaiable.for every.legion.and.give them.rules? They habe something^^

 

Potentially, where would the rules go?

[Chief Captain Redd]

We could simply add a Legion Astartes Additional Units section maybe as soon as book 1?

[simison]

Maybe. Grifft would know better. Maybe it should be introduced into Book 2, specifically as a unit to come out of the Insurrection heating things up. 

 

Since the Gaja is a mass produced, does that mean it should be barred from having a Machine Spirit? I'm not sure how difficult it is to install one. As for weapons, Grifft suggested keeping the usual upgrades available for the Predator Strike, are there any other options that should be added? The battle cannon is one suggestion. I'm surprised that the twin-link Lascannon isn't one of the canon options, I guess that's only a later innovation or something to replace the loss of options as technology becomes more decrepit.

[Doctor Perils]

As it stands, a typical Predator stands at 15 melta bombs. If I leave the front value the same, while increasing the rear armour, that's adding another melta bomb. The lack of sponsons, however, will help keep the price down.

Plus another bomb or two for fast.

One reason i suggested the razorback (or variant thereof) is that it can be modelled rather easily.

 

Otherwise, Im not a fan of having a fa variant and a hs variant, as that becomes two new units. You also have to be wary of not making a clone of the sicaran

[Kelborn]

I seconded the implementation of these breacher bikes.

 

They could be very helpful in the Predators arsenal.

 

While the Striking Shadows sabotage behind enemy lines and the Fire Claws keeping them busy at the walls, the Breacher Bikes can make a breakthrough, equipped with a Teleport-beacon, enabling the Deathsworn to strike amidst the enemy troops. :)

 

I imagine the Predators to be a ground force instead of making use of jetbikes, etc.

[Chief Captain Redd]

For an alternate fire weapon why not a miniaturized version of the Fellblade accelerator cannon? aka an Astartes railcannon. I mean it fills that versatile role, rail tech is actually incredibly simple and in the real world we're only limited by battery power and capacitor arrays; so you could argue that it could easily be mass produced. You give the vehicle fast and then it could shoot a low power shot with full movement, or if it only moves 6" then full power AP or HE rounds could be used.

[Grifftofer]

I think restricting the Gaja from taking Machine Spirit is actually quite a good way of showing it's 'lower-tech' nature. After all if they were easy to install all vehicles would have them (or the option for them).

 

As for points, it will depend on what you equip them with. But to me a Fast Predator with -1 Front Armour and a pair of Heavy Bolters should cost about the same a a Regular Predator. Or you could downgrade the weapons to Heavy stubbers/Rotor Cannons to begin with for about -5 to -10pts.

 

I actually quite like the idea of a mini Fellblade cannon as the most expensive option available. The easy options would be to reduce the size of the blasts and the range. However that would still leave you with an armourbane lascannon and a blast krak missile, so the stats will probably need more playing with. Cool idea though.

 

Some possible weapons options to consider (All dual/paired):

• Heavy Stubbers
• Heavy Bolters
• Heavy Flamers
• Multi-meltas
• Plasma Cannons
• Lascannons
• Accelerator Cannons

[simison]

 

As it stands, a typical Predator stands at 15 melta bombs. If I leave the front value the same, while increasing the rear armour, that's adding another melta bomb. The lack of sponsons, however, will help keep the price down.

Plus another bomb or two for fast.

One reason i suggested the razorback (or variant thereof) is that it can be modelled rather easily.

 

Otherwise, Im not a fan of having a fa variant and a hs variant, as that becomes two new units. You also have to be wary of not making a clone of the sicaran

 

 

Right. And fair point about easy modelling. I also agree that the dual Gaja idea is becoming too hard to implement, so I'll just drop the heavy version since Fast is the key theme here.

 

Actually, should we give the Breacher Bike the Damocles treatment? Have one legion debuted as part of their arsenal that spread through the Loyalists? The Predators could lay claim to coming up with it, and filling one of their unique unit slots.

 

I am a fan of an Astartes railcannon. 

 

Should assault cannons be an option?

[Kelborn]

I would be fine with that. :)

just need to think about what to skip for them

[MikhalLeNoir]

You can skip a xhar or a wargear option.

[Kelborn]

Will skip the infravisor

That will give me 4 units, 2 weapons, 3 characters

 

I will maybe create something like a Ravenwing eqivalent for my Legion. Fits quite well.

[simison]

Thinking more on it, I think I will drop the Front AV to 12 and raise the Rear AV to 11. The idea is that since this tank is a reaction to the Insurrection, Alex knows that it's primary target is going to be space marines. Since marines can batter down AV 10, but Alex still needs quick production, he sacrifices front armour for rear armour. 

 

And since this is mainly to counter Traitor marines, it won't feature...

• Heavy Stubbers
• Heavy Bolters
• Heavy Flamers

...as its turret weapon. They aren't effective enough against power armour.

[Grifftofer]

Ok. Then some alternative anti-marine weapons.

• Lascannons
• Plasma Cannons
• Plasma Guns
• Meltaguns
• Multi-meltas
• Cyclone Missile Launchers
• Mini Battle Cannon (Questoris Battle Cannon stats, but single shot & maybe smaller blast)
• Mini Accelaerator Cannon
• Some kind of Archaeotech weapon (~S5-6, AP3, possibly multi-shot)

It should be pretty easy to make a list from the options above. All of them have good enough AP to deal with marines. The issue is that they are all going to be relatively expensive so the base tank cost will likely be higher. Also by the time you get to AP3 the weapons are normally in the anti-tank range anyway, so the tank will be more multi-role than dedicated to anti-vehicle/infantry in particular.

[bluntblade]

Will skip the infravisor

That will give me 4 units, 2 weapons, 3 characters

I will maybe create something like a Ravenwing eqivalent for my Legion. Fits quite well.

Can their name please translate to the Screaming Fists?