IL V - The Halcyon Wardens

[simison]

I always figured the Wardens would be very good at fighting retreats. I remember reading about Socrates basically saving a defeated Athenian army from disaster by simply keeping a coherent force together, which would be too much trouble for an enemy to break

 

Well, no objections so far.

 

So, here's the beta version of Wardens 2.0:

 

• Preeminent Defenders: All units with LA:HW equipped with a shield of any kind, gain +1 Initiative when charged. This bonus is lost in subsequent combat sub-phases beyond the first.
• The Warmaster's Own: Immune to Sweeping Advance
• Honour of the Warmaster: D3 Victory Points for Opponent if any HW retreats.

 

Ironically, I see this emphasizing a combat-focus legion since this is where they would shine (and to put some distance between units and the table edge). For the Leadership angle, I'd rather not do the Warlord trait swap. Likewise, I feel a bonus to combat resolution is already taken care by the Sweeping immunity. Maybe something as straightforward as +1 LD (max 10?) for all characters? Nah. Or maybe a situational bonus for being near objectives? 

[Chief Captain Redd]

Situational bonus near objectives would be best as it's a good way to show tactical acumen or steely resolve. Though I don't know what.

[Grifftofer]

Being Immune to Sweeping Advance is a pretty powerful rule, it emphasises taking big units as you are less worried about one bad roll screwing them over. But it also makes big units incredibly hard to finally destroy. I think it's definitely worth play-testing though and I look forward to hearing your thoughts after your mega battle.

 

I think that Honour of the Warmaster is too situational though, as the only time you will likely see a Wardens unit retreat off the board will be after multiple turns of failing a relatively easy Leadership check. Perhaps making it a bit more possible would make it a better balance? Something like the Alpha Legion's Martial Hubris, or maybe even that the Wardens may never draw a battle and any time where the results say that they should counts as a loss?

 

For a situational bonus around objectives the first suggestion would be Stubborn, but I believe the Bears already have that rule. So maybe something else like: +1Ld(Max 10), re-roll Ld tests or may roll an extra dice and take the lowest; when within 3" of an objective.

[bluntblade]

Rather than Martial Hubris, perhaps it could be called "the Warmaster's Burden"

[simison]

The Warmaster's Burden, I can get behind that. So, given [The Warmaster's Own] power, should it be 1 VP loss or D3 loss? 

 

Shared the idea of fielding the Wardens to one of the other apoc players. He suggested fielding both Wardens and Blood Angels with Wardens as allies. 

 

The other two canon legions that have such a steep penalty (Dark Angels, Alpha Legion) tend to be very focused in their tactics, so I'm leaning towards fewer but bulkier rules.

Edited August 26, 2016 by simison

[Grifftofer]

I think D3 would be appropriate, especially if you add in the Leadership modifying rule as well. A combined Wardens and Angels force would be interesting, and if we come up with rules for you Liaison officer soon enough you will be able to field them in a single detachment :P

[simison]

One step at a time. It's very likely that we're going to ignore the Allies Chart for the Apoc game and both sides are Battle Bros within their teams for ease. 

 

Back to the Legion Tactics:

 

The Dark Angels are essentially able to hit easier against anyone they are tied with in WS. So, more of their attacks are going through in close combat, and since almost every marine has a combat blade, it affects most of the legion. 

 

Whereas the Alpha Legion have their choice of 6 special rules that give them incredible adaptability. 

 

The more I think about it, the more I think should drop the Leadership idea. The question I have is do I drop the Defenders bonus? ....or can I balance it by removing Go to Ground and adding that to the Defenders rule?

 

So, Defenders would be +1 Initiative to shield-men, but no Go to Ground.

 

The Warmaster's Own would be immune to Sweeping, but the VP penalty for taking a beating. 

 

• Preeminent Defenders: All units with LA:HW equipped with a shield of any kind, gain +1 Initiative when charged. This bonus is lost in subsequent combat sub-phases beyond the first. HW cannot choose to Go to Ground.
• Honour of the Warmaster: Immune to Sweeping Advance. D3 Victory Points for Opponent if HW loses more units than the opponent does.

 

How does that sound?

Edited August 26, 2016 by simison

[Grifftofer]

Fair enough :) I think those two rules are balanced enough against one another to work well.

 

As an aside: Looking through them again, your rules almost make you the anti-Emperor's Children army. Your bonuses almost play out counter to theirs, with you getting the +1I when charged and being immune to Sweeping Advances. Where they get bonus I when they charge and a bonus to Sweeping Advance rolls.

[simison]

Fair enough I think those two rules are balanced enough against one another to work well.

 

As an aside: Looking through them again, your rules almost make you the anti-Emperor's Children army. Your bonuses almost play out counter to theirs, with you getting the +1I when charged and being immune to Sweeping Advances. Where they get bonus I when they charge and a bonus to Sweeping Advance rolls.

 

Ha! That's ironic, and I'll take that as a good sign. 

 

Okay, I have the revised Legion Tactics. I'm going to pitch them to the guy organizing the Apoc game. Next step is to create an actual list.

[Grifftofer]

Well if you want any input on the list? I'd be happy to contribute.

[simison]

Well if you want any input on the list? I'd be happy to contribute.

 

That'd be awesome since I've played with Legions only twice. 

 

So, Wardens and Angels. The only unit I have painted in Warden colours is a single Breacher squad. If Nate, my friend, lives up to his bargain, then I'll have a 'captain' too. And if the Veterans arrive from Europe, that'll be a third. 

 

I have a lot of Angels, so no limits there. From what I see of their Legion rules, they are jump infantry focused. Sounds like they need to be Deep Striking, and Deep Striking hard. I'm very tempted to use the 'Day of Revelation' RoW. (Oh, ironies.)

 

So, infantry heavy against Chaos and Daemons. Who should be the warlord (no special characters)? 

[Grifftofer]

I haven't had an opportunity to play since the Angels rules came out so I'll just go off what I've read about their specifics in game. The Day of Revelation Rite seems to have success when you combine the Assault troops with Dreadnought Drop Pods (ideally with Leviathans, but I guess regular dreads/contemptors work too) in order to provide a 3+ cover save for units that drop in behind them. This allows for you to drop a significant threat into the enemy lines for possible turn 2 charges.

 

Most people suggest keeping the assault squads relatively small in size so you can drop them behind cover and ideally keep them alive. My personal advice would be to take 2-3 of them with about 12-15 marines in each, so you can take some casualties. Sprinkle a couple of power weapons in (what you take will depend a little on personal preference, though I think axes are never a bad choice), a power fist/melta bombs on the sergeant and an apothecary to give FNP. Then, if you can, have a forgelord in at least one of the squads with a boarding shield, so that unit can have rad grenades to be able to wound on 2s in round one of combat and defensive grenades for if they charge you first.

 

Another good unit for if you're facing many power armoured enemies would be a lightning claw terminator squad, again with a forgelord if available. This unit will blend through any power armoured or worse unit it contacts (2+ to wound with re-rolls), if you want to make it even harsher you could put a herald in with them to get them to WS5, and taking the herald will also give you access to the rite of war. The other thing I would suggest is that you take the unique weapon on your consuls as getting to strike in Initiative order with AP2 is phenomenal. If you get permission to take it the Blood Angels relic is also really good too (check how your opponents think the +1 to wound and Fleshbane combine before he gets to combat though).

 

Two other things that will be potentially really helpful for the list:

• A deredeo/Mortis contemptor. Either would give you reasonable anti-air coverage depending on model availability.
• A damocles command rhino. No scatter on any units dropping within 24" of this beauty. In an assault/deep strike heavy list. Need I say more?

Anyway, hope these little bits help out :)

[bluntblade]

Do we have names and company numbers for the Wardens on Cadia?

[simison]

I can definitely do the rhino, but I have no Deredeos or Contemptors, just the traditional dreadnoughts or dreadnought drop pods.

 

Definitely can do the multiple 10+ assault squads easy though. 

 

EDIT: I can whiff something up, but I wanted to make some progress on Insurrection today before I threw a few bones to the new book.

Edited August 26, 2016 by simison

[simison]

So, talked to Jordan, the apoc guy. He's actually wary of me fielding any Warden units, but will relent if he's the only one against it. With that in mind, I plan on bringing a very tiny Warden detachment, just three units. Maybe two in order to ease any worries. 1 HQ, 2 Troops, one of them will be the breacher squad already painted.

[simison]

Bah, talked to one of the other players, and they reminded me that one of the Chaos guys is one of those old-timer-whiner types. As much as I hate to say it, I'm probably better off not fielding the Wardens on Sunday. Still, the tactics are revised, so progress was made regardless.

[bluntblade]

Play them as BA successors attached to your main force? Knock 'em dead either way

Edited August 27, 2016 by bluntblade

[Grifftofer]

That's unfortunate, but progress is always good. Hope your Angels rip through the traitorous scum tomorrow.

[simison]

Did do that, but today I field the Wardens in a 2k game. My friend suggested it, and I'm going to take him up on his offer. Now, I just need to create a list in an hour. But first, off to my gaming store.

[simison]

That was perhaps the most infuriating game of the year. Was essentially tabled by Turn 2. It's one thing if I make tactical mistakes and that leads to defeat, but it's another thing if the dice just hate me for two whole rounds. The enemy made saves left and right, while my own dice failed to make a dent in their forces.

 

Perhaps it wasn't just the dice. Here's the list I used. I'm afraid I might have been too eager for toys over boys:

 

+++ Warden 1 (2001pts) +++

++ Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

+ HQ +

Legion Praetor [Artificer Armour, Digital Lasers, Iron Halo, Jump Pack, Master of the Legion]
Rules: Independent Character, Master of the Legion
····Legiones Astartes [Legion Specific Rules]
····Rules: Legiones Astartes

+ Troops +

Legion Assault Squad [Combat Shields, 10x Legion Assault Space Marines, 2x Power Weapon]
····Legion Assault Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]
····Legiones Astartes [Legion Specific Rules]
····Rules: Legiones Astartes

Legion Tactical Squad [11x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla]
Rules: Fury of the Legion
····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Power Armour]
····Legiones Astartes [Legion Specific Rules]
····Rules: Legiones Astartes

Legion Tactical Support Squad [5x Legion Space Marines, Melta Guns]
Rules: Support Squad
····Legion Sergeant [Power Armour]
····Legiones Astartes [Legion Specific Rules]
····Rules: Legiones Astartes

+ Elites +

Apothecarion Detachment
Rules: Apothecarion Detachment
····Legion Apothecary [Jump Pack]
····Rules: Apothecary Jump Pack
········Legiones Astartes [Legion Specific Rules]
········Rules: Legiones Astartes
····Legion Apothecary [Legion Space Marine Bike with Twin-linked Bolter]
····Rules: Apothecary Legion Space Marine Bike
········Legiones Astartes [Legion Specific Rules]
········Rules: Legiones Astartes

+ Fast Attack +

Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod
Rules: Assault Vehicle, Attack Flyer, Drop Pod Assault, Heat Blast, Inertial Guidance System

Legion Outrider Squad [4x Legion Space Marine Outrider, Twin-linked Plasma Gun]
Rules: Scout
····Legiones Astartes [Legion Specific Rules]
····Rules: Legiones Astartes

+ Heavy Support +

Legion Heavy Support Squad [4x Legion Space Marines, Volkite Culverin]
Rules: Deflagrate
····Legion Sergeant [Power Armour]
····Legiones Astartes [Legion Specific Rules]
····Rules: Legiones Astartes

Legion Vindicator Siege Tank Squadron
····Legion Vindicator Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Dozer Blade, Laser Destroyer Array]
····Rules: Power Capacitor

+ Lord of War +

Questoris Knight Warden
Rules: War Machine Detachment
····Questoris Knight Warden [stormspear rocket pod]
····Rules: Household Rank

 

1 Apothecary with the Outriders to provide some extra defense against Gets Hot, and the other Apothecary with the Praetor and Assault Marines. 

 

I was against a Black Templar/Tyranid list. 

 

Black Templar:

Knight Errant

Land Speeder [storm?] with scout squad. 

Crusader Squad with Techmarine in Drop Pod

Sicaran with Lascannon sponsons

Whirlwind

 

Tyranids:

Two Flyrants

Three Zoanthropes with little swarm bugs, outflanking

10xTermagants, Outflanking

Mawloc

Venonthrope with Termagants, securing rear objective

 

The Vindicator was destroyed Turn 1, combination of the Errant and Sicaran, despite a 4+ Cover Save right after the enemy seized the initiative.  

 

Bikes cut down in half by Errant rocket pod and Storm Speeder shots, killing the first apothecary.

 

I put the Support Squad into the Dreadclaw. Their mission was to drop next to the enemy Knight Errant and slag it. They dropped and only did 2 HP out of 6 shots (he made 3 out of 3 invul saves). Adding the Knight Warden's rocket pod and gatling gun, only whittled the enemy knight down another 2 HPs. 

 

Turn 2, Zoanthropes flank next to TAC squad guarding objective, and promptly Psychic Shriek half the squad dead. 

 

Heavy Support Squad wiped out by Mawloc and Flyrant. 

 

Support Squad cut down in a third, while Dreadclaw is nuked by Errant's magna cannon. 

 

Knight Warden brought down by Zoanthrope Lance Warp Power, Sicaran, and Knight Errant pouring fire into it. Cover saves and invul saves, I fail to roll either of them, and so it dropped from full health to destruction in a single turn of shooting.

 

Even if I played on, the best I could do was kill the Techmarine with Praetor, the Errant with the survivors of the TAC support squad, and that's it. 

[bluntblade]

Ouch

[Chief Captain Redd]

Yeah that's not on you as player, he came with a NASTY list, that's a tournament styled list and honestly unless you break out a Primarch and a VERY specialized legion list they really don't balance well for the current 40k meta IMO.

[Slips]

I mean, BT and Tyranids aren't the most "Up there" armies right now but, suffice to say, apart from the  imbalance of a 30k v 40k game (in 40ks favor) and the absolute undeniable heresy that is his list, you were fighting an uphill battle from the start.

[bluntblade]

So 30k against 40k put you at an automatic disadvantage?

 

Actually, why are the two systems so out of whack?

[MikhalLeNoir]

Uhm...because Gw makes the rules for 40k to attract kids. Fw makes the rules for 30k habing a more adult focused approach