IL V - The Halcyon Wardens

[Grifftofer]

The Unique units don't have to be all that complicated. One could be a tank unit that could represent the Prefects, something with more than just +1BS. Given that full tank armies are now available through a Rite of War (can't remember it's name) they could add some diversity. Another could be a Consul option who shows the V^th's collaboration with other forces as a sort of liaison officer. I'm not too certain what you could do with the last, but I'm sure you could come up with something. Or even use that slot for an extra character as you were considering before.

[Doctor Perils]

I'm not too sure really, but I think three or four could be doable though, no?

 

Remind me, you've got Ancient Greek Indian Germans right?

• Is there a hoplites among the legions yet? I know Sigi has the Hoplon shield, but I've never really managed to get a handle on his overall theme, and I don't think he's actually using Marines with shields and spears. So these hoplites could have Breacher or Tower shields and some kind of power spear (that would depend on if you're putting a slot in for that or not) => I'd say these could actually be a troop unit, or if you prefer an elite that is transformed into troop with that khornate shield master you spoke about in one of the early posts.
• For the Indian aspect, without a special item of wargear, perhaps an assault unit with combat shield and two chainaxes or something? Or else a kind of monstrous creature that transports Halcyon Wardens into battle with a large cannon on it's back (what elephants? nooooo...)
  • EDIT: also, Ghurkas...
• For the Germans, you've got quite a few possibilities
  • Tank companies of some sort - I'm not necessarily a fan of that one because you can already do quite a few different things with the armoured rites of war and the like.
  • Doppelsöldner with eviscerators in small units that can join other units (like the Empire detachments in Fantasy Battle could do)
  • Schwarze reiter, bikers or jetbikers with artificer armour, possibly a morale effect (like fear) and pistol attacks (possibly even "destroyers on a bike")
  • Some kind of bomber-and-fighter wing, to simulate blitzkrieg and the battle of britain

EDIT: for other greek possibilities, age of mythology can be a wealth of inspiration

 

EDIT3: I'd be of a mind that consul-diplomats should be a generic agent of ___, it wouldn't be particularly logical to have your diplomat in your own legion after all.

 

EDIT4: is their a hoplite... really Lord Thørn, learn to grammarize before posting :P

Edited August 19, 2016 by Lord Thørn

[Grifftofer]

Is their a hoplites among the legions yet? I know Sigi has the Hoplon shield, but I've never really managed to get a handle on his overall theme, and I don't think he's actually using Marines with shields and spears. So these hoplites could have Breacher or Tower shields and some kind of power spear (that would depend on if you're putting a slot in for that or not) => I'd say these could actually be a troop unit, or if you prefer an elite that is transformed into troop with that khornate shield master you spoke about in one of the early posts.

 

Building on the Hoplites thing a little. You could simply give Breachers the option to exchange their bolters for power spears for +5 points (in the same way that Ultramarine ones can take power swords).

[AlphariusOmegon108]

Finished these halycon wardens, just as promised:

[Sigismund229]

[*]Is their a hoplites among the legions yet? I know Sigi has the Hoplon shield, but I've never really managed to get a handle on his overall theme, and I don't think he's actually using Marines with shields and spears. So these hoplites could have Breacher or Tower shields and some kind of power spear (that would depend on if you're putting a slot in for that or not) => I'd say these could actually be a troop unit, or if you prefer an elite that is transformed into troop with that khornate shield master you spoke about in one of the early posts.

Mhm, the Crimson Lions do. However, I was thinking of replacing that with something along the lines of a rule allowing all CL ICs and Sergeants to take a combat shield or renaming it sgiatha(just means shield in Scots gaelic) as hoplon shield is a hangover from the wilderness years when I wasn't quite sure what direction I wanted the Crimson Lions to go in. These days they have a theme that's predominantly a blend of pre roman celtic culture and norse culture.

 

For Halycon Wardens special units

Greek inspired:

Pezhetaroi/Spartiates: Elite breachers? It means foot companions in greek and was the name given to Alexander the Great's pikemen. You could look to the hypaspists for inspiration as to how to outfit them.

 

Hetairoi/Companions: Jetbike riding companion cavalry?

 

Minosoi: Terminators who are the aggressive section of the Halycon Wardens.

 

German inspired units:

I'm presuming you mean more recent german than the germanic tribes of the early centuries AD?

Landkschnets: Could be guys armed with things such as pole axes rather than spears(although admittedly they were famous for using the döpelsödner).

 

Elite artillery?

 

For India perhaps some guys inspired by the Mughals? So, seeing as the Wardens don't seem like hit&run legion, heavy armoured guys with power mauls and chainmail/scail mail in the gaps..

Edited August 19, 2016 by Sigismund229

[Doctor Perils]

 

[*]Is their a hoplites among the legions yet? I know Sigi has the Hoplon shield, but I've never really managed to get a handle on his overall theme, and I don't think he's actually using Marines with shields and spears. So these hoplites could have Breacher or Tower shields and some kind of power spear (that would depend on if you're putting a slot in for that or not) => I'd say these could actually be a troop unit, or if you prefer an elite that is transformed into troop with that khornate shield master you spoke about in one of the early posts.

Mhm, the Crimson Lions do. However, I was thinking of replacing that with something along the lines of a rule allowing all CL ICs and Sergeants to take a combat shield or renaming it sgiatha(just means shield in Scots gaelic) as hoplon shield is a hangover from the wilderness years when I wasn't quite sure what direction I wanted the Crimson Lions to go in. These days they have a theme that's predominantly a blend of pre roman celtic culture and norse culture.

 

For Halycon Wardens special units

Greek inspired:

Pezhetaroi/Spartiates: Elite breachers? It means foot companions in greek and was the name given to Alexander the Great's pikemen. You could look to the hypaspists for inspiration as to how to outfit them.

 

Hetairoi/Companions: Jetbike riding companion cavalry?

 

Minosoi: Terminators who are the aggressive section of the Halycon Wardens.

 

German inspired units:

I'm presuming you mean more recent german than the germanic tribes of the early centuries AD?

Landkschnets: Could be guys armed with things such as pole axes rather than spears(although admittedly they were famous for using the döpelsödner).

 

Elite artillery?

 

For India perhaps some guys inspired by the Mughals? So, seeing as the Wardens don't seem like hit&run legion, heavy armoured guys with power mauls and chainmail/scail mail in the gaps..

 

I had been thinking that Landsknechts could be simulated in some form by taking the "hoplites" (or even Pezhetaroi (sp?)) with the Doppelsöldner unit I described :)

 

• By speaking of companion cavalry, what kind of equipment options were you thinking of? Also, Alexandros doesn't have access to a jetbike, so a specialised jetbike bodyguard unit might be weird, but I'm curious to see what you were thinking of :)
• Where do Minosoi comme from (historical inspiration-wise I mean)
• I think it's modern German yes (cf names like Irvin Ruel)
• I don't know that the Halcyon Wardens are particularly known for their artillery, whereas Legions like the Warbringers, Iron Bears and Fire Keepers are. That said, a lot of greek mathematicians are known for their work on siege weapons, so artillery wouldn't be out of place on that side of things either. (according to wiki, it also seems like the Moghuls were big on big guns too... I'm sensing a pattern here)
• A mace armed unit might work too...
• @Sigi, what do you think about my suggestions?

[MikhalLeNoir]

Ir a special consul reflecting the diplomatic ties tonthe other legions. If he is on board you could field a apecial unit of the.other.loyalist legioms. As they want to help the warmaster. ( prior to the insurrection you could field.every special unit)

[Doctor Perils]

Ir a special consul reflecting the diplomatic ties tonthe other legions. If he is on board you could field a apecial unit of the.other.loyalist legioms. As they want to help the warmaster. ( prior to the insurrection you could field.every special unit)

That's why I think the diplomat should be a generic "consul" choice, not one of the Halcyon Wardens' special units, if you see what I mean?

I also don't think we should go to using special units from other legions, that's Alpha Legion territory.

[simison]

 

Ir a special consul reflecting the diplomatic ties tonthe other legions. If he is on board you could field a apecial unit of the.other.loyalist legioms. As they want to help the warmaster. ( prior to the insurrection you could field.every special unit)

That's why I think the diplomat should be a generic "consul" choice, not one of the Halcyon Wardens' special units, if you see what I mean?

I also don't think we should go to using special units from other legions, that's Alpha Legion territory.

 

 

Oh....*glances at the Warden legion tactics*

 

The German influence is based off the Wehrmacht of WW2 fame, a German organization that I see as more honorable than the Nazi Party, if only because of examples such as Erwin Rommel. 

 

Maybe I should strike a balance between additional characters and units. All that remains tech-wise are the shields, which leaves 8 slots between units and characters. In that situation, who should be the 4th character after the first three? Blunt, since you've written the most about the Wardens after me, I'll give you first pick.

 

The Myrmidon terminators are the elite shield unit of the Wardens, while the Caryana are the Indian mystic psykers. 

[Sigismund229]

For the jetbikes I was more thinking either a spearhead unit or a unit who were the hammer to the shield squad's anvil.

 

Minosoi are mythically inspired. Their name is what I believe the plural of Minos is. My idea was that seeing as they're terminators they're big and bulky like minotaurs.

 

For the artillery I was thinking of greek mathematicians, Mughal big guns and the fact that the german artillery on the dawn of ww1 was very highly regarded.

 

Hmm...perhaps also, if you want a Wehrmacht theme, either panzer grenadiers or sturmtruppen inspired units? Or if you wanted to be a bit darker, penal battalions but that doesnt seem like something Alex would do.

 

Thørn, most of the ideas look good. The only two I'm not a fan of are the idea of a Halycon Warden unit that's basically a war elephant and the bomber/fighter wing as I'm not overly fond of legion's having fighters and close air support is fulfilled by the existing flyers.

 

EDIT: If you want you can probably combine the Panzer grenadiers/strumtruppen with the hypaspists(the elite assault troops of Alexander the Great)

Edited August 19, 2016 by Sigismund229

[Doctor Perils]

 

 

Ir a special consul reflecting the diplomatic ties tonthe other legions. If he is on board you could field a apecial unit of the.other.loyalist legioms. As they want to help the warmaster. ( prior to the insurrection you could field.every special unit)

That's why I think the diplomat should be a generic "consul" choice, not one of the Halcyon Wardens' special units, if you see what I mean?

I also don't think we should go to using special units from other legions, that's Alpha Legion territory.

 

 

Oh....*glances at the Warden legion tactics*

 

The German influence is based off the Wehrmacht of WW2 fame, a German organization that I see as more honorable than the Nazi Party, if only because of examples such as Erwin Rommel. 

 

Maybe I should strike a balance between additional characters and units. All that remains tech-wise are the shields, which leaves 8 slots between units and characters. In that situation, who should be the 4th character after the first three? Blunt, since you've written the most about the Wardens after me, I'll give you first pick.

 

The Myrmidon terminators are the elite shield unit of the Wardens, while the Caryana are the Indian mystic psykers. 

 

Ooops, had completely forgotten about that X) Well, I take back what I said earlier :P However, with the diplomat consul I envision, their shouldn't be transfer of unique units: ie a Grave Stalker diplomat shouldn't be able to bring along a Grave Stalker unit to the Warbringers force he's joined to, if you take my meaning :)

 

Could you update your first post with the extra special characters and units you already have, I haven't a clue where to look for them :)

 

For the jetbikes I was more thinking either a spearhead unit or a unit who were the hammer to the shield squad's anvil.

 

Minosoi are mythically inspired. Their name is what I believe the plural of Minos is. My idea was that seeing as they're terminators they're big and bulky like minotaurs.

 

For the artillery I was thinking of greek mathematicians, Mughal big guns and the fact that the german artillery on the dawn of ww1 was very highly regarded.

 

Hmm...perhaps also, if you want a Wehrmacht theme, either panzer grenadiers or sturmtruppen inspired units? Or if you wanted to be a bit darker, penal battalions but that doesnt seem like something Alex would do.

 

Thørn, most of the ideas look good. The only two I'm not a fan of are the idea of a Halycon Warden unit that's basically a war elephant and the bomber/fighter wing as I'm not overly fond of legion's having fighters and close air support is fulfilled by the existing flyers.

 

EDIT: If you want you can probably combine the Panzer grenadiers/strumtruppen with the hypaspists(the elite assault troops of Alexander the Great)

I think Panzergrenadiers are an idea the Halcyon Wardens could get behind, but how would you represent them differently to simple Tactical Marines in Rhinos or Land Raiders? I also don't think Alex would accept Penal battalions, I don't know if there would be enough Wardens warranting that level of punishment either.

 

So Simison, how would you feel about an artillery unit or character?

[simison]

Still on phone, so my post will be brief. I do like the idea of an artillery a bonus, whether a character or a unit. General idea is that while the shield-men hold the line, the wardens heavy tank squadrons and artillery are pounding the enemy and forcing them to assault the Warden positions.

[Sigismund229]

@Thørn, as I said I doubted Alex would go for penal battalions. For Panzergrenadiers, how about they get bonuses for the turn they dismebark or smthn? Not sure.

 

Sim, please name him Archimedes..

[Doctor Perils]

@Thørn, as I said I doubted Alex would go for penal battalions. For Panzergrenadiers, how about they get bonuses for the turn they dismebark or smthn? Not sure.

 

Sim, please name him Archimedes..

Yeah, I was agreeing with you :P

 

For the Panzergrenadiers, something like that could be eminently possible, especially as a rite of war?

[bluntblade]

 

 

Ir a special consul reflecting the diplomatic ties tonthe other legions. If he is on board you could field a apecial unit of the.other.loyalist legioms. As they want to help the warmaster. ( prior to the insurrection you could field.every special unit)

 

That's why I think the diplomat should be a generic "consul" choice, not one of the Halcyon Wardens' special units, if you see what I mean?

I also don't think we should go to using special units from other legions, that's Alpha Legion territory.

 

Oh....*glances at the Warden legion tactics*

 

The German influence is based off the Wehrmacht of WW2 fame, a German organization that I see as more honorable than the Nazi Party, if only because of examples such as Erwin Rommel. 

 

Maybe I should strike a balance between additional characters and units. All that remains tech-wise are the shields, which leaves 8 slots between units and characters. In that situation, who should be the 4th character after the first three? Blunt, since you've written the most about the Wardens after me, I'll give you first pick.

 

The Myrmidon terminators are the elite shield unit of the Wardens, while the Caryana are the Indian mystic psykers.

I should read more carefully. For characters I'm inclined to say Tannhäuser, as he can represent the tank elements. Pyrrhicles covers the Myrmidons, right?

[simison]

•Preeminent Defenders: All units with LA:HW equipped with a shield of any kind, gain +1 Initiative when charged. This bonus is lost in subsequent combat sub-phases beyond the first.

 

•Shields of the Imperium: All units with LA:HW and any Dreadnoughts part of a HW primary detachment confer a +1 cover save to any Loyalist units behind them. The entire unit must be equipped with a shield of some kind to confer this bonus. Dreadnoughts ignore this restriction.

 

•Bonds of Brotherhood: Any Halcyon Warders Primary Detachment may include generic Legion units that utilize other Legion Unique rules in lieu of the Legiones Astartes (Halcyon Wardens) special rule, limited by the Allies Matrix. Units chosen in such a manner retain their own specific Legion Astartes rules and any Benefits or Detriments that may confer. Up to 2 units may be substituted for Battle Brothers, while only 1 unit is allowed for Fellow Warriors. No units are allowed to substitute for either Distrusted Allies or By Order of X! No independent character, HQ, or unique legion units may be chosen.

 

 

There's a restriction missing. Blunt, did you suggest it? No Sweeping Advance, was it? 

 

Anyway, as a companion post to what I just mentioned in the General thread, I might be fielding the Wardens in force. But, I'm not sure if the rules hold up, now that I have a more in-depth understanding of legion tactics. In all honesty, I think there's too much focus on shields and their use. A rule is okay, but not much more than that.

[bluntblade]

I haven't said anything about their rules

[simison]

I haven't said anything about their rules

 Bah! I wonder who said it then.

 

I'm going over canon Legion Tactics to further my understanding of them. Speaking from a general sense, there are five aspects of the Halcyon Wardens that I want to emphasize, whether through rules, gear, or units.

 

One, brotherhood. Alex and his Wardens go out of their way to try to get along with their brother Legions and help them get along with each other. I want this to be represented somehow in the crunch.

 

Two, masters of the shield. The Myrmidon and the Tower Shields fulfill this to a degree, but, according to the Warmaster, the Legiones Astartes are fulfilling their purpose best when they're taking a hit meant for humanity. They are meant to sweep aside the greatest dangers to humanity while protecting them.

 

Three, diviners and seers. The Caryana Detachment accomplishes this. Although famed defenders, the Wardens form one of the three psyker legions in BotL, alongside the Harbingers & the Thousand Sons. 

 

Four, German roots of war. The Prefects and Irvin fill this niche in, but the Legion started out as a very aggressive, tank-master assault force. Because of Alex's emphasis on pursuing individual fulfillment within the cogs of the Legion, this aspect of the Legion is reduced but never fades away as time goes on.

 

Five, the Warmaster's own. This is something that I might accomplish through a new relic, but the Wardens are elevated by the Emperor's appointment. That comes with benefits and a new degree of responsibility. Privately, between this and the brotherhood/unity angle, I suspect they are paralleling some aspects of the Ultramarines. 

 

I think that covers it.

[bluntblade]

Perhaps something like they buff an army that they're Battle Brothers with?

[Grifftofer]

Well my advice, if you're looking to keep the shields thing to one rule, would be to keep pre-eminent defenders as I think that overall it's a nicer rule.

 

To go through your 5 aspects though:

• Brotherhood: This in part will be covered by the Allies chart and the fact that you have so many brother legions with close bonds, but you could also create the 'Liaison Officer' that I suggested before to emphasize it further. This officer could have a retinue of any non-unique (or legion specific) unit and give additional benefits based upon how close the bond is (in the allies chart). For example Sworn Brothers might have their regular Legion rules, but also have access to Pre-eminent Defenders (for example) to show their working with the Wardens so closely that they have adopted some of their tactics and skill. Something else that could be done is that you could have a Legion rule that gives a bonus based upon Halcyon Wardens AND Sworn Brothers units, similar to the Ultramarines rules. Showing that regardless of if they have to work with others they can still enact precise orders.
• Shield Masters: As you say the Tower Shield and Myrmidons cover this area fairly well. But the idea of taking a hit for humanity and sweeping aside all opposition gave me an idea for something like a Rite of War, which combines Legion and Militia/Solar Auxilia lists and gives the Wardens additional benefits when aiding the non-legion units of the army. Perhaps non-legion units give a vexilla-like effect within 6-12", and/or you may re-roll charge distances to enter a combat with non-legion units already engaged in it?
• Diviners and Seers: The Caryana already helps with this and until we see the Thousand Sons rules we won't know how a 'psyker legion' will look. But you could create an upgrade similar to the Word Bearer's Burning Lore to allow Independent Characters to become Level 1 Psykers with Divination as their only power option.
• German roots of war: My knowledge of German ways of war is admittedly limited, but this could be covered by a Rite of War, or by adding something to their Legion rules. The thing that came to mind was something like: Units disembarking may move an additional D3", which counts as part of their normal movement for all purposes. This would allow you to 'run' with an armoured company and have more flexibility when you disembark to position for either a rapid fire or a charge.
• The Warmaster's Own: I think that this should be part of the Legion rules. Mainly as it feels like a pretty big part of the legion's identity (it is one of your 5 aspects after all) to be relegated to merely a relic. I think this could even be at least partly a drawback along the lines of the Sons of Horus's Bitter Pride rule. So they follow their own chain of command over that of others due to their Warmaster's sovereignty in matters of war (could probably be worded better). An alternative/additional rule to consider would be that they must always accept challenges as any challenge made during combat is an challenge to the Warmaster's authority and must be answered.

[simison]

The more I think about it, the more I like the 'Liason Officer' idea. To capture the nuances of the Warden's relationship with the other Legions should require something better than a single rule in the Tactics section. So, I'll remove the Bonds of Brotherhood and replace it with something else.

 

Alright, so three aspects to be met in the Legion Tactics section: the shield, the Warmaster, and the sacrifice. 

 

Preeminent Defenders meets the shield aspect.

 

How do I best represent the other two? I agree that the Warmaster aspect should provide a bonus and a hindrance. To support three bonuses with one hindrance, that should be a major penalty. Perhaps a Victory Point or even D3 Victory Points are up for loss.

 

I think it's clear that though the idea is a 'mobile wall' legion, mobility isn't really their benefit. So, nothing that could boost movement or things like that. Likewise, no benefits to reserves. 

 

Leadership and endurance are the areas that warrant a look. Endurance wouldn't be like the Death Guard or the Salamanders since the endurance of the Wardens is not about innate resilience (though they have that in spades) but about skilled protection. They safeguard themselves from death by beings master shield-man. So, the endurance benefit should hinge on their skill-at-arms. How best to represent that?

 

The leadership angle should be about providing a noble example to lead others. Deeds, not words. 

[Doctor Perils]

A 5+ invul save in close combat? Or a re-roll invul saves in close combat if straight up 5+ is too strong?

[Grifftofer]

I think that a 5+ invulnerable (even if only in melee) would be too much for weaker units whilst being useless for units that have an invulnerable already. Whereas the re-rolls works the other way around: imagine Myrmidons with a 3+ re-rollable invulnerable save...

 

However there may be some way to show their endurance as a martial trait. I think that some mechanic that works off the Sweeping Advance stage, so that your units become less likely to just get wiped out. Perhaps Halcyon Wardens may use their WS instead of I in all Sweeping Advances. Possibly they are not destroyed when the results of the dice roll (+Initiative) are equal. You could possibly even use both. An alternative to the Sweeping Advance style of rule is that you always test to regroup on an unmodifiable Leadership of 10, so if you do run away you will come back to fight in a turn almost every time.

 

The Leadership aspect feels a little more tricky. If you just want a minor benefit then allowing any Halcyon Warden Warlord to swap a rolled Warlord trait for the Inspiring Presence trait in the Command traits table could be a nice way of showing that. Or giving Centurions who don't choose a Consul option +1Ld, to show their increased command training. Something more martially orientated could be that all LA(HW) Independent Characters provide a +1 bonus to combat resolution to any combat they are in as they drive their allies on through valorous deeds.

[simison]

Yeah, the invulnerable idea can get crazy with a little effort. 

 

Grifft, I like the Sweeping Advance idea. If done right, it gives the impression that the Wardens may not be the best warriors, but, as a unit, they can defend themselves extremely well. 

 

Mechanically, I don't see much difference between swapping I for WS, since it'll usually be a 4, anyway. How overpowered would it be to become immune from being swept? A watered down version of ATSKNF? They can still be sent running, but if the enemy catches them, they just reform and fight.

 

In return, the counter would be something like 'Honour of the Warmaster', if a single Warden unit falls back off the battlefield, the enemy scores D3 Victory Points? The Wardens may be hard to break, but when they break, they break hard.

Edited August 25, 2016 by simison

[bluntblade]

I always figured the Wardens would be very good at fighting retreats. I remember reading about Socrates basically saving a defeated Athenian army from disaster by simply keeping a coherent force together, which would be too much trouble for an enemy to break