Legions Imperialis Legions Imperialis: The Great Slaughter

[01RTB01]

3 minutes ago, DuskRaider said:

I think they cast their net way too wide and have bitten off more than they can chew as far as the range of games and lines go. Some ideas short term may have seemed like a good plan but long term they can’t sustain in their current form and need to expand, which from what I’ve read here seems impossible if they intend to stay rooted in their current location. 

They clearly can't keep up with demand and despite the two week pre order window, there's still weekly releases.

 

The marine and stormcast product lines are so bloated they need to either expand production, slow releases or shrink product lines.

 

They seem to have become victims of their own success and response is so slow. Yet they plough cash into an inferior webstore. Makes no sense to me.

[Marshal Rohr]

4 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

You know what would be cool? Just having access to the product that had been released 5+ years ago. I can’t even get my hands on Warhounds that actually have useful weaponry these days. Mega Bolters, Plasma Blastguns and Laser Destroyers are rarer than hen’s teeth these days. 

Alchemist posted “More Warhammer, sometimes, maybe, never” and that feels more accurate than “More Warhammer, More Often” 

[DuskRaider]

I’m honestly surprised that they went through with The Old World. At this moment, they have 14 different gaming systems that are derivatives of the two main (Fantasy and 40K) with the exception of Lord of the Rings, but I don’t even know if that’s supported anymore. Six of those games are skirmish level, 3 for each setting with Blood Bowl being its own thing and both Titanicus and Imperialis being under the Horus Heresy umbrella (again, a derivative of 40K). Way too much bloat, I can’t imagine some of these are even remotely profitable anymore. 
 

It just blows my mind that they can split both their attention and manufacturing facilities up so much to cater to all of these sub-games. They already killed off Aeronautica, but for the life of me I can’t remember the last time they officially stopped supporting a system. Time to trim the fat. 

[Aarik]

The way their business model seems to have changed lately reminds me of how companies started pushing subscriptions because the recurring revenue for them is more stable and investors seem to like like.  Now, that wouldn't translate 1:1 to GW because their products are largely physical, but it seems like their focus on larger box sets is in the same vein.  Regular, higher priced FOMO releases that they can be reasonably certain will sell out seem like a more reliable revenue source than individual kit releases that are just purchased intermittently.  And putting two different factions in the boxes pushes people to start new armies too

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm still of the opinion that all the retro stuff like ToW, KT, Necromunda, and Epic scale stuff (LI) are a part of the IP protection strategy. If they abandon games for too long they lose TM protection even if they comply with the rest of the rules.

Even if I'm incorrect, it's 50/50 (I either am or I'm not), the drain on their resources and capacity is real. It's hard to do new things when you have to also do the old stuff.

 

[Lord_Ikka]

5 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

I'm still of the opinion that all the retro stuff like ToW, KT, Necromunda, and Epic scale stuff (LI) are a part of the IP protection strategy. If they abandon games for too long they lose TM protection even if they comply with the rest of the rules.

Even if I'm incorrect, it's 50/50 (I either am or I'm not), the drain on their resources and capacity is real. It's hard to do new things when you have to also do the old stuff.

 

I'm pretty sure that once they have the trademark, its theirs until the trademark time limit expires, whether or not they use it. The only thing I can think of where you have to put a product out or lose the ability to hold on to the IP rights is something like movie licensing- such as studios putting out really bad/low-budget movies in the 90s for IPs like Marvel or DC, or even the case of Hellraiser, where the IP rights travelled from budget studio to budget studio that put out crap until Clive Barker/Netflix could buy it back. 

 

A lot of GW's old IP really can't be enforced, as the names they use have been around for decades (Space Marines, Elves, Dwarves, etc...), which is in part why AoS came into being, as they re-framed and renamed a lot of stuff to get actual IP protection; you can't really sue someone producing knock-off Wood Elves or Dwarves, but if they try to sell Sylvaneth or Fyreslayers then you have a case. Same with 40k- there's a reason that its now the Astra Militarium and Legions Imperialis instead of simply Imperial Guard and Epic.

[Pacific81]

I am not going to bemoan GW trying to support too many games, as it wasn't that long ago (12-15 years) that they were flying in ever decreasing circles and only supporting 40k, WHFB, LotR - specialist games had gone etc. and the term 'Games Workshop, was an ironic reminder of the company's past.

I will say that period was good for the industry in general, beyond GW, as gamers looked elsewhere and other sci-fi/fantasy games had a chance to grow.

 

But the problem is when perhaps you start to spread yourself a little too thin. I don't get the feeling Legions was particularly well playtested (the imblance in some areas is almost hilarious, even by GW's standards). We don't even know who wrote and made the game as they don't give credits, and we know from the likes of James Hewitt how poorly paid the heart and soul of the company (which is really how the creatives should be viewed) are. And it's why they keep losing them.

So perhaps you have a bottleneck on both the creation of the new material and the production at the factories, and both of those things are preventing the specialist games from flourishing as they really should.

[Nova-V]

3 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

I'm pretty sure that once they have the trademark, its theirs until the trademark time limit expires, whether or not they use it. The only thing I can think of where you have to put a product out or lose the ability to hold on to the IP rights is something like movie licensing- such as studios putting out really bad/low-budget movies in the 90s for IPs like Marvel or DC, or even the case of Hellraiser, where the IP rights travelled from budget studio to budget studio that put out crap until Clive Barker/Netflix could buy it back. 

 

A lot of GW's old IP really can't be enforced, as the names they use have been around for decades (Space Marines, Elves, Dwarves, etc...), which is in part why AoS came into being, as they re-framed and renamed a lot of stuff to get actual IP protection; you can't really sue someone producing knock-off Wood Elves or Dwarves, but if they try to sell Sylvaneth or Fyreslayers then you have a case. Same with 40k- there's a reason that its now the Astra Militarium and Legions Imperialis instead of simply Imperial Guard and Epic.

You are thinking of copyright which has a fixed term and is in the hands of the creator whether they actively use it or not.  Trademark is pretty much the opposite you can have it for an infinite time period but it must be actively enforced or you loose it.  It's why Disney is now trying to move Micky into being a Trademark rather than protected under Copyright, the copyright is gone and they can't do anything about it, but Trademark they can defend forever.

[Mandragola]

9 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

I’m honestly surprised that they went through with The Old World. At this moment, they have 14 different gaming systems that are derivatives of the two main (Fantasy and 40K) with the exception of Lord of the Rings, but I don’t even know if that’s supported anymore. Six of those games are skirmish level, 3 for each setting with Blood Bowl being its own thing and both Titanicus and Imperialis being under the Horus Heresy umbrella (again, a derivative of 40K). Way too much bloat, I can’t imagine some of these are even remotely profitable anymore. 
 

It just blows my mind that they can split both their attention and manufacturing facilities up so much to cater to all of these sub-games. They already killed off Aeronautica, but for the life of me I can’t remember the last time they officially stopped supporting a system. Time to trim the fat. 

I find both the LI and OW releases pretty bizarre to be honest. Both seem to miss out on really obvious ways to gain sales. 
 

For old world you have the vastly successful total war series. Isn’t the obvious thing to bring out a game set around that? You could bring back all your old models, including all the characters from the game. There’d be opportunities for new stuff with the expanded factions in the game, as and when that became possible. I don’t see any benefit to setting things 500 years in the past. I can’t bring myself to care when the world’s going to blow up no matter what. It feels like a sideshow. 
 

And setting LI in heresy just seems weird too. The original reason for the heresy was that they only had to make one figure range if they did a civil war. But they *have* made two ranges for LI. I don’t have anything against the solar auxilia exactly but they’re hardly as interesting a faction as orks or eldar would have been. It feels like a deliberate choice to limit the scope of the game and prevent future expansion, which I can’t rationalise. 
 

LI has also been seriously affected by the delays to releases. However, that makes it extra strange that they don’t have models to sell us. My LI stuff is back in its box for now because I can’t actually buy the Astartes infantry I need to complete the project. 

[Captain Idaho]

6 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

I'm still of the opinion that all the retro stuff like ToW, KT, Necromunda, and Epic scale stuff (LI) are a part of the IP protection strategy. If they abandon games for too long they lose TM protection even if they comply with the rest of the rules.

Even if I'm incorrect, it's 50/50 (I either am or I'm not), the drain on their resources and capacity is real. It's hard to do new things when you have to also do the old stuff.

 

 

Actually I saw a YouTube discussion of this issue, where they talked about how GW is a monopoly in essence and thus operates as such. Creating the Old World is about hurting opposition and limiting their growth rather than the game's genuine success.

 

Think it was guerilla miniatures games where Ash spoke about it?

 

Regarding why they can't support their own demand, one THEY'VE DEVELOPED , I have zero sympathy. They're a market leader by a huge margin. A margin so big they should be competent and professional enough to have experts planning for these things.

 

Energy consumption as to why they can't build a factory in Nottingham? Go to a nearby town. Go to Birmingham if you want a central location (Britain's joint 2nd city).

 

Even smaller companies local to me have multiple locations around the South of England to deal with their demand and businesses.

 

This is basic management.

 

As for how that impacts Legions Imperialis... it definitely is. Lots of people are losing enthusiasm for it due to a lack of capacity for their purchases. The basic stuff needs to be available. It's the core of the product.

 

Looking at this very topic, we can see less excitement for the incoming releases and more concerned consternation and a dejected outlook.

Edited February 11, 2024 by Captain Idaho

[Matcap86]

GW is also caught between a rock and a hard place (partly of its own making). If they stop releasing things for a bit, a vocal part of the audience will start decrying whatever game didn't get a monthly new release as "dead game". Which is a trend that's been getting worse in most collectible games over the years.

You can see it with LI, it released in December and is in principle getting a huge release in a span of 3 months with dozen(s) of kits and still momentum is allegedly dying out already. 

 

Another example is Star Wars Armada. It has a pretty large lineup but because the publisher announced they weren't working on new expansions people just stopped playing as there wasn't new stuff to buy. Which is a weird dynamic for a game that was pretty complete and reaching into obscure stuff to create new expansions.

 

All that said. GW really does need to up production to keep stuff in stock at least for the stuff they've released. 

[Mandragola]

I also watched the GMG discussion video and found it really illuminating. It was much more focused on TOW and comparison with heresy, without really mentioning LI, but it held important points. 
 

A FLGS has only very limited shelf space. If GW is going to have 14 different games then said FLGS simply cannot support them all, except for perhaps in a very cursory way. So maybe have the starter and some boxes of generic stuff like Astartes infantry - which of course they won’t because there are none.
 

But then the problem is those products aren’t of interest to the kind of veteran players who might be at a FLGS on a games night, so they’ll arrive, play their game and go home without buying anything. That sucks for the FLGS, which of course wants its games nights to drive sales.

 

in that situation, why would a FLGS support these games, which don’t make them any money? Better to have perhaps a splash release to sell some big boxes on a release weekend, then leave it at that.

 

GW might be able to increase production by opening a new factory but I wonder if that would result in much more stuff being bought. I’m such a hobby butterfly that I have plenty of grey plastic stuff available to paint if I want it. But it really sucks that I’ve got nearly £300 worth of LI stuff that may never end up becoming an army if I’ve lost interest by then.

 

Even with all the usual issues I’m surprised at how badly the LI stock is holding up. Did they perhaps think they needed equal amounts of all the boxes, or equal amounts of SA to Astartes? Not being able to buy the core infantry box for a game, for months, is just unacceptable and may end up being lethal for LI. 

 

Sooner or later things will come back into stock, the book annd its ansso stuff will appear, and then we’ll see what happens. 

[de Selby]

3 hours ago, Mandragola said:

 My LI stuff is back in its box for now because I can’t actually buy the Astartes infantry I need to complete the project. 

This is word for word what I was saying to my FLG about HH2.0 last year, when I was explaining why I wouldn't be getting into LI.

 

As Mandragola said, they only really have to support one figure range for each of  these heresy specialist games, but they somehow can't.   I think at least all the essential plastics for LI marines have been announced, right?

 

[Marshal Rohr]

If they sell out their stock it’s a financial success. They print enough to cover the margin. If people decide to stop playing a game because they can’t buy something, it doesn’t matter - they already made their money. As much as some people like to pretend they have some kind of principles about the hobby, they’ll just be back once it comes back in stock. It’s a [redacted] situation for people who are looking forward to the projects but can’t get the things I want because of stock issues, but it’s not hurting the game because people complaining about ditching the game are online blowhards or meta chasing anyway. They were never a long term audience for a specialist game anyway. 
 

The only Studio at Games Workshop trying to make things for fans of the settings is Specialist Design Studio and if they are getting muscled out of release schedule slots for more Main Design Studio releases that keep the lights on, that’s a logical business decision and the blame lays on the middle managers not the Specialist Design Studio. So yeah, we have to wait a while so Age of Sigmar and 40K can get another character or a 40K faction can get its next card pack masquerading as models but that isn’t SGDS fault. 

Edited February 11, 2024 by Marshal Rohr

[Petitioner's City]

15 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

I’m honestly surprised that they went through with The Old World. At this moment, they have 14 different gaming systems that are derivatives of the two main (Fantasy and 40K) with the exception of Lord of the Rings, but I don’t even know if that’s supported anymore. Six of those games are skirmish level, 3 for each setting with Blood Bowl being its own thing and both Titanicus and Imperialis being under the Horus Heresy umbrella (again, a derivative of 40K). Way too much bloat, I can’t imagine some of these are even remotely profitable anymore. 
 

It just blows my mind that they can split both their attention and manufacturing facilities up so much to cater to all of these sub-games. They already killed off Aeronautica, but for the life of me I can’t remember the last time they officially stopped supporting a system. Time to trim the fat. 

 

So, there was this thing that happened in 2015 - you might remember it? 

 

 

But in the years thereabouts I think Dreadfleet was a good example of a failed launch (4th quarter 2011, cancelled early 2012) where fat was quickly trimmed and culled (with unsold copies destroyed :( )

 

I think the biggest cull, beyond the End Times and the end of the troll back catalogue at an earlier date, was the removal from sale and download of most of the specialist games & their mixed original/fanatic/SG era models in 2008, seeing the end of support for Inquisitor, BFG, Necromunda, Mordheim, Warmaster, Blood Bowl and others. 

 

I guess there are also boxes not intended for long release - like the earlier modern WHQ boxes, Calth, Prospero, etc - and splash boxes like Speed Freeks too.

[Marshal Rohr]

There are two studios each responsible for different games competing for release slots. There isn’t bloat or a problem with the games or lack of interest, there is corporate mismanagement and operations failures. 

 

Main Studio:

-Age of Sigmar

-Warhammer 40K

-Kill Team

-Warcry

-Underworlds

 

Specialist Games

-Horus Heresy

-Necromunda

-Blood Bowl

-Legiones Imperialis 

-Lord of the Rings

 

Titanicus is done with development and in a custodial state, Lord of the Rings is in a custodial state, Blood Bowl is also probably in a custodial state. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Not sure those are all in custodial states or done with releases, as MESBG has an upcoming campaign book and models that they announced a few weeks ago.

 

That's going a bit off topic though. With this one, there's a tight schedule they're trying to have with LI, ToW and 40k 10E all trying to roll out at the same time. So there's a lot of moving parts going on right now in particular, that should calm down some once some of those get on their feet.

Edited February 11, 2024 by WrathOfTheLion

[Deakz28]

30 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

There are two studios each responsible for different games competing for release slots. There isn’t bloat or a problem with the games or lack of interest, there is corporate mismanagement and operations failures. 

 

Main Studio:

-Age of Sigmar

-Warhammer 40K

-Kill Team

-Warcry

-Underworlds

 

Specialist Games

-Horus Heresy

-Necromunda

-Blood Bowl

-Legiones Imperialis 

-Lord of the Rings

 

Titanicus is done with development and in a custodial state, Lord of the Rings is in a custodial state, Blood Bowl is also probably in a custodial state. 

Tbh I would say blood bowl is not custodial, last year it has a release every month, and was the only specialist game (other than heresy) to get an end of year review far more than necromunda has had in years,

I would also say Heresy is split between both studios now GW does the plastics 

Edited February 11, 2024 by Deakz28

[Dark Shepherd]

Theres possibly some caution for non 40k stuff as Dominion was over produced (in an over reaction to Indomitus) but releases are scheduled a year in advance apparently so there is some guess work

 

The next set of Blind Boxes will be illuminating, Underworlds could feature heavily there again

 

Id say the next LI wave will probably be under produced again

[Joe]

On pre-order next Saturday, alongside various boxes.

[Sky Potato]

9 minutes ago, Joe said:

On pre-order next Saturday, alongside various boxes.

Sweet, can’t wait any of that to never be in stock either…

 

Sarcasm aside, I am genuinely looking forwards to this set of releases.

[Matrindur]

So the rumours of a preorder where true but the contents where wrong. What is here is pretty nice, though I would have preferred any SA transport instead of the malcador versions.

What I don't like is that we still don't have the tanks from the core set.

 

Also 22 cards in the card pack. The units up for preorder should be 10 detachments in total and I expect at least 4 new formations between SA and SM so there should be rules for about 8 more units in addition to the preorder stuff in the book

[Matcap86]

Wow that's... Not what I expected to get alongside the book? Like, that was about 30% of it. Hopefully they'll start putting stuff out more often for LI because if it's another 3 month wait before we get bikes or transports for SA that would suck. 

[DuskRaider]

21 minutes ago, Joe said:

On pre-order next Saturday, alongside various boxes.

I’d like to thank our Lord and Savior,  Nurgle, for this wonderful news. 

[Lord Marshal]

14 minutes ago, Matcap86 said:

Wow that's... Not what I expected to get alongside the book? Like, that was about 30% of it. Hopefully they'll start putting stuff out more often for LI because if it's another 3 month wait before we get bikes or transports for SA that would suck. 

 

For my own curiosity I did a quick headcount.

 

Next week:

• Legiones Astartes Support
• Spartan Assault Tanks
• Solar Auxilia Support
• Malcador Infernus/Valdors
   

Still Outstanding:

• Solar Auxilia Basilisks/Medusa
• Titan & Knight Battlegroups
• Drop Pods
• Fast Attack Box
• Dreadnought Drop Pods/Shield Generators
• Land Raider Proteus'
• Stormhammers
• Dracosans
• Plastic Arvus'
   

Standalone/Re Releases Outstanding:

• Sicarans
• Predators
• Leman Russes
• Malcadors
• Xiphons
• Fire Raptors
• Storm Eagles
• Warhound Titans
• Direwolf Titans
• Warmaster Titan
• Warmaster Iconoclast Titan

Edited February 11, 2024 by Lord Marshal