Plastic Legio Custodes Battlegroup + Coronus Grav-Carrier + Venatari + Liber

[m0nolith]

19 minutes ago, Jings said:

  

 

Let's be real though, that's a false equivalence. The Squats were reintroduced after twenty-odd years of in the form of the Leagues, with new lore establishing who they are as well as explaining that the Squats that we had were a divergent group aligned with the Imperium. It also came with stealth model support for the old Squats through the Necromunda releases. That's a pretty big distinction compared to a sudden change to a faction that had been established for nigh on thirty years, had seen significant and increasing development for fifteen years, and had been playable on the tabletop for a decade. The decision to make that retcon was so recent that published material released shortly after the change didn't reflect it (that coffee table book). The Squats being eaten by Tyranids isn't even full canon from my understanding. It was an explanation provided by Jervis Johnson on an old forum when he was asked what happened to Squats and accepted by the community, but didn't appear in any published material until the Votann codex. 

 

I've seen this and similar arguments a few times, even in this thread. But there's a distinction to be made between the introduction of new lore, such as the Rogal Dorn Tank, changing or redefining existing lore, as with the Leagues, and changing lore but saying it's always been that way, as with the Custodes changes. 

 

No one would have batted an eyelid if GW had listened to ADB and made the Custodes co-ed at the time of the First Heretic, but they didn't. Now there's backlash because people don't like changes coming out of nowhere for what quite clearly appears to be out of universe reasons. 

Ok let’s be real, the fact that there isn’t an equivalency there is literally the point I was making.

 

The sudden change that Squats are in fact alive after being eaten by Tyranids (which was canon fyi from the Inquisition War trilogy of books and not just a passing comment from Jervis on Portent), is a much bigger retcon than the Custodes. 
And no, they weren’t an established faction, they were there in the backround. I know because I’ve always been a big fan of them and consumed what lore was available back in the day, which was sparse at best. 

Also we’ve had years, decades of “this new model kit has been actually around for thousands of years in universe, you just didn’t see it until now” type of soft retcons, which is what’s necessary if your universe setting is, well, a setting as opposed to a narrative which is now. 
 

So yes, this isn’t equal, that’s my point.

There has been much bigger changes in the past that bothered no one.

[Indy Techwisp]

Also to stay on topic here, I feel their more static poses make sense for Custodes.

 

They don't really need the big action poses because half of what makes them terrifying is that they can just stand there looking superior and then enact a flurry of violence and go straight back to that initial posture as though they didn't just cleave 7 guys in half less than a second ago.

[phandaal]

39 minutes ago, Joe said:

I think, ultimately, it's fine to question retcons and the lore (both new and old); on a subjective level, people will decide for themselves if they think something was handled satisfactorily / unsatisfactorily. There's definitely a great deal to be said about the benefit of hindsight as well, and not getting caught up in the moment or letting yourself get overly emotional - particularly when you remember that this is ultimately an entirely voluntary hobby and as an individual we are capable of walking away entirely if we disagree with the direction something is going (case in point - I stopped playing 40,000 entirely for a decade as I wasn't keen on the way it had been going, and still remain leery to this day).

 

Sticking around for the sake of sticking around and dragging other people down isn't healthy nor appropriate behaviour. It's fine to share opinions and such, however treating them as fact or trying to browbeat others into your line of thinking isn't on.

 

Honestly, while I agree with this sentiment, I don't think it is applicable here. No one who dislikes the new lore is raging really, just saying "I don't like this." Despite some people passive-aggressively implying that not liking the change means we hate women (real subtle, guys), the actual opinions are nowhere near that. Nothing I've read here makes me think that someone has decided to drag the entire hobby down somehow, I just think people would rather see everyone agreeing with them instead of seeing some people dissenting.

 

Sure the back and forth can get contentious, but I chalk that up to people getting aggressive when arguing. That is normal. And unfortunately, people are going to keep having their opinions. Some people still think adding Tau to appeal to the anime enjoyers was a bad idea, more than 20 years later.

[Valkyrion]

2 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 Some people still think adding Tau to appeal to the anime enjoyers was a bad idea, more than 20 years later.

 

I resemble that remark! 

[jaxom]

This is why I like the new models more than the old models:

 

   

 

Cones vs cylinders. Cones looks too much like Marine silhouette to me.

Edited January 17 by jaxom

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

Based on how Scribe replied to that point when I made it via "they were dripfed in Necromunda so it's okay", you're probably correct. 

 

Hey, you and Wispy can make whatever assumptions you like. I couldnt care less because I know I'm right.

 

Sisters x 2 already existed as a faction, no problem, Guard has female models, no problem, Eldar in all its various configurations have tons of female models, no problem.

 

This has nothing to do with having female options in the game, there have essentially always been female models in the game.

[Evil Eye]

33 minutes ago, m0nolith said:

Then what does it matter that some of the Custodes are women?

 

To me at least, as mentioned prior it's less the existence of female Custodes itself and more the less than great introduction combined with the clear ulterior motive for them being added less to actually enrich the setting and more to tick boxes and serve as a smokescreen to discredit any critics of GW's writing as "chuds" or whatever the new word is. "Don't like the changes to the fluff we made? Ugh, you must be some kind of woman-hater like the people screaming at the femstodes!". Which is especially funny because nobody was screaming at the femstodes. More just sighing and shaking their heads at the incredibly transparent attempts to pander to social media addicts.

 

Also as mentioned there's plenty of room for more female models in 40K (and 30K to get technical). Personally when the Catachans finally get an upgrade I'm hoping there's some female heads and bodies in the associated kits. Would love to see homages to things like the old female Catachan with the grenade launcher, or trooper Bush from the RT Imperial Army range. Point being, there's no need to retcon anything to get more female models out there when there's better ways of doing that. And again- the Sisters of Silence are right there! Flesh them out instead!

[Indy Techwisp]

2 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

And again- the Sisters of Silence are right there! Flesh them out instead!

 

One getting added/updated does not preclude the other from also getting that treatment, they are not mutually exclusive things.

GW is capable of doing both and, if you belive that the Female Custodes are to "check boxes" as you put it, they probably will do both because now there's even more female models in the range so that's more "boxes checked", right?

[Crimson Longinus]

 

There is a reason why female Custodes and Marines get massive pushback from certain crowds, whilst all sort of other female warriors are accepted (even if they were retcons like the knight pilots.) It is that Marines and Custodes represent the male power fantasy of being big, muscular, hulking powerhouses. Some men become very insecure and feel threatened if women are allowed to be that, even in fiction. 

[Indy Techwisp]

Seriously tho, this was the least important and least relevant lore change GW have ever done and the fact that it's had this kind of response from multiple parts of the community is why being a Warhammer player isn't really seen as a positive thing outside of our community.

 

They changed one word from a line in an 8th ed codex that didn't even get reprinted in the following codex and put more heads in a box come the refresh of the relevant unit.

They made the exact same change with Knights and no-one cared.

 

The new models look amazing, they match the classic Custodes art much better than the previous models and it bodes well for more updates of this caliber following on after this because they're supposed to be getting a full range update and refresh (which you will note includes the Sisters of Silence as part of the HH Custodes range).

I just wish they'd have gone with female Custodes existing in lore back when they made the 1st batch of models instead of deciding people would be disappointed they couldn't buy a model of a female custodes since the box was all men and rejecting it.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

There is a reason why female Custodes and Marines get massive pushback from certain crowds, whilst all sort of other female warriors are accepted (even if they were retcons like the knight pilots.) It is that Marines and Custodes represent the male power fantasy of being big, muscular, hulking powerhouses. Some men become very insecure and feel threatened if women are allowed to be that, even in fiction. 

 

Look, if you are into muscle mommies, thats fine brother, I dont need to know, I dont care.

 

When they get around to updating Catachans, there WILL be female models, and they WILL be ripped.

 

So no, thats still a miss for you and everyone else trying to make a point or insinuation because you dont have the stones to say it clearly.

 

I dont like my media changing due to the pressures of a vocal minority shrieking on social media. Thats it. Thats the message.

[Indy Techwisp]

1 minute ago, Scribe said:

I dont like my media changing due to the pressures of a vocal minority shrieking on social media. Thats it. Thats the message.

 

I'm sorry, but from what I recall all the screaming from the vocal minority happened AFTER we saw mention of Female Custodes in a leaked codex page, not before.

[Marshal Rohr]

1 hour ago, m0nolith said:

Then what does it matter that some of the Custodes are women?

 

Is it a soft retcon? Yes, as there has been many times in the history of this universe.

But what does it matter in the wider context of the universe? Nothing really, other than maybe adding more variety to a faction that very much needs it, and this is coming from someone that loves the Custodes. 

The reasoning they used is good imo, not enough noble sons, so some had to be daughters. Due to the custom nature of making a custodian, the baseline human does not have to be male like in the case for space marines which are more of an assembly line.

 

But genuinely, how does any of this affect anything, anywhere in this universe. Do you think your Space Marines are now going to start including women? Is that what people are afraid of?

 

Also, the new Custodes stuff looks amazing!

I was just talking about the Leagues man, I don’t give a [redacted] if the golden bananas swing both ways. 

[Scribe]

Just now, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I'm sorry, but from what I recall all the screaming from the vocal minority happened AFTER we saw mention of Female Custodes in a leaked codex page, not before.

 

lol then you are forgetting the climate from 2016-2022 or so. Which is fine, it belongs in the dumpster of history.

[Indy Techwisp]

2 minutes ago, Scribe said:

lol then you are forgetting the climate from 2016-2022 or so. Which is fine, it belongs in the dumpster of history.

 

I'm being serious about this, I do not recall any real mention of the topic at all until the absolute outpouring of vitriol towards the concept after the codex page got leaked.

 

If, as you say, "screaming from a vocal minority" caused the change, where the hell were they screaming because it wasn't anywhere anyone could see it.

[Robbienw]

I don’t think the Sister of Silence can remain Sisters only after this.  
 

There are examples of male blanks in the fluff, there has been nothing saying they are rarer than females.  
 

The contrast between Custodes and SoS is gone, so no need to keep that.

 

The only possible reason I could see male blanks being excluded is if they are more powerful and need to be controlled and only let into the assasinorium and the legio ordo sinister.  But again there is no lore indication they are more powerful.

 

They need to be renamed the Oblivion Knights or Silent Order or something and be mixed ranks like the Custodes.

[Marshal Rohr]

1 minute ago, Robbienw said:

I don’t think the Sister of Silence can remain Sisters only after this.  
 

There are examples of male blanks in the fluff, there has been nothing saying they are rarer than females.  
 

The contrast between Custodes and SoS is gone, so no need to keep that.

 

The only possible reason I could see male blanks being excluded is if they are more powerful and need to be controlled and only let into the assasinorium and the legio ordo sinister.  But again there is no lore indication they are more powerful.

 

They need to be renamed the Oblivion Knights or Silent Order or something and be mixed ranks like the Custodes.

Sister aren’t going to get a new release for Heresy. It’s going to stay the current kit. 

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, Robbienw said:

I don’t think the Sister of Silence can remain Sisters only after this.  
 

There are examples of male blanks in the fluff, there has been nothing saying they are rarer than females.  
 

The contrast between Custodes and SoS is gone, so no need to keep that.

 

The only possible reason I could see male blanks being excluded is if they are more powerful and need to be controlled and only let into the assasinorium and the legio ordo sinister.  But again there is no lore indication they are more powerful.

 

They need to be renamed the Oblivion Knights or Silent Order or something and be mixed ranks like the Custodes.

 

I belive the Lore reason for them being Female Only was because they draw from the same pool the assasinorum uses for Culexus Assassins and they prefer male candidates so they claim all of them.

 

Also unlike the Custodes, the Sisters of Silence lorewise make a big deal out of being all ladies, including their literal name. I would hazard a guess that if they weren't literally called "Sisters of Silence" we would've had both sides of the Talons go unisex at once.

[Norman Paperman]

19 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

There is a reason why female Custodes and Marines get massive pushback from certain crowds, whilst all sort of other female warriors are accepted (even if they were retcons like the knight pilots.) It is that Marines and Custodes represent the male power fantasy of being big, muscular, hulking powerhouses. Some men become very insecure and feel threatened if women are allowed to be that, even in fiction. 

Completely rude and disingenuous. Steel-manning arguments might help you understand both sides of an issue rather than veering into whatever the heck this is. 
 

That this is where someone who wants Female Space Marines so quickly goes in these arguments, and it’s not just you, this seems extremely common in all hobby spaces where this sort of thing comes up, is very noticeable. Personal attacks like this escalate, entrench, and make the “no” side not want to give an inch because they don’t want to hand over any narrative and art control of their hobby to a group of jerks. 

Personally, I genuinely do not care about whether custodes themselves can be female or not. I absolutely care about 40K not giving an inch to people who insult the masculinity of men who disagree with them. It’s outrageous. 

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

If, as you say, "screaming from a vocal minority" caused the change, where the hell were they screaming because it wasn't anywhere anyone could see it.

 

That any and every media needed to be checking off every box of inclusion, representation. That only acceptable (per their minority definition) opinions could be expressed, or you were some kind of ist or phobe. Kinda like what a few of the esteemed fraters here have done in this thread through insinuation oddly enough, care to wager if they are all on bluesky?

 

That the idea of sex driven (meaning male/female) options, factions, organizations is some how forbidden.

 

The zeitgeist of that period of time, the detachment from reality, the outright denial of realty in some cases, had many of the existing IP's (Wizards of the Coast, Disney/Star Wars) at the time shifting, changing, or retconning things.

 

GW is just slow on the uptake as usual, and this retcon is a direct result of that era.

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, Norman Paperman said:

Female Space Marines

 

Just a heads up, this is about Custodes.

In the article they put up explaining why they have Female Custodes now they once again reiterated that Space Marines CANNOT be Female.

[phandaal]

1 minute ago, Robbienw said:

I don’t think the Sister of Silence can remain Sisters only after this.  
 

There are examples of male blanks in the fluff, there has been nothing saying they are rarer than females.  
 

The contrast between Custodes and SoS is gone, so no need to keep that.

 

The only possible reason I could see male blanks being excluded is if they are more powerful and need to be controlled and only let into the assasinorium and the legio ordo sinister.  But again there is no lore indication they are more powerful.

 

They need to be renamed the Oblivion Knights or Silent Order or something and be mixed ranks like the Custodes.

 

Jurgen in Gravis armor when??

[Ahzek451]

1 minute ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I belive the Lore reason for them being Female Only was because they draw from the same pool the assasinorum uses for Culexus Assassins and they prefer male candidates so they claim all of them.

 

Also unlike the Custodes, the Sisters of Silence lorewise make a big deal out of being all ladies, including their literal name. I would hazard a guess that if they weren't literally called "Sisters of Silence" we would've had both sides of the Talons go unisex at once.

I'd say it's doable and fine. As mentioned there is a precedent for male blanks. As mentioned multiple times, GW will retcon what they will under any reason and justification. If it requires a name change, so be it. We went from eldar to Aeldari and imperial guard to astra militarum.  So I say why not. Would be cool to see some dudes with those cool metal masks. 

[Indy Techwisp]

1 minute ago, Scribe said:

Kinda like what a few of the esteemed fraters here have done in this thread through insinuation oddly enough, care to wager if they are all on bluesky?

 

Well that comment tells me everything I needed to know.

 

Thanks for confirming you're not worth interacting with.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

In the article they put up explaining why they have Female Custodes now they once again reiterated that Space Marines CANNOT be Female.

 

Words, easily changed in response to the winds of change social media.

2 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Well that comment tells me everything I needed to know.

 

Thanks for confirming you're not worth interacting with.

 

And this response proves I'm right.