Plastic Legio Custodes Battlegroup + Coronus Grav-Carrier + Venatari + Liber

[Castellan Wulfrik]

2 minutes ago, chapter master 454 said:

Alright...so the real acid test: how many of these will get to have 40k rules vs. being a soft-removal to being 30k only things. Would love to see these for 40k and be a start at a breaking down of the garden walls between the games.

A man can dream but we've not seen any other indication they've softened their stance on cross-game models. If anything recent ToW and AoS Chaos releases show the opposite direction with two hilariously similar ranges of winter and summer barbarians needing to exist. 

[Indy Techwisp]

1 minute ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

A man can dream but we've not seen any other indication they've softened their stance on cross-game models. If anything recent ToW and AoS Chaos releases show the opposite direction with two hilariously similar ranges of winter and summer barbarians needing to exist. 

 

With AoS and TOW, the difference in Marauder/Marauder equivalent is a popularity thing and a "these settings have wildly different lore" thing.

WHFB Marauders were often the butt of jokes for looking awful and the AoS replacement was too heavily Lore connected to AoS Lore to be used in TOW.

So TOW instead repurposed the now fairly popular Norsca minor faction into the main Chaos Warriors range as the new Marauders.

[Nephaston]

18 minutes ago, Plaguecaster said:

It's disappointing there doesn't seem to be any trigger for the gun spears on the hafts anymore the previous range did. Yeah I know 40k shouldn't care about realism but at least put some effort into it are the gun parts just for show now or something 

Clearly updated the hardware to those pressure sensors some phones have where you can tie a functionality to squeezing the phone.

Or activation runes.

[TheVoidDragon]

It's interesting that they've said you can use them in 40k too, when they seem to usually want to keep the games completely separate. Even though you could obviously unofficially do that and use them in 40k, I didn't expect GW would actually say it's fine to do so. 

 

52 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

I don't like it on account of the fact that they turned a male faction into a mixed faction, in order to check a box and hand certain kinds of people a scalp for having removed one more purely male thing. Now that I wrote the no-no opinion in plain English, can we just knock it off?

 

 

 

It's the acting like there was some sort of clear "no" to the whole idea that makes this some sort of big sudden negative alteration to the faction that is the part that just seems strange to me, because Custodes were much more ambiguous over whether or not they were specifically male. Unlike Space Marines they have never been given a definitive statement either way.

 

I don't know why you'd try and frame this as something where the only reason it could happen is to "check a box" rather than be something that is genuinely felt is a beneficial thing for the faction that they just want, we know Aaron Dembski-Bowden had tried to get it to happen many years ago but was prevented because of the miniatures having been made already, was that him wanting that just to "check a box" too? 

My comment though was more to do with having seen so many times some saying things like "Retcons bad!" over this, as if 40k itself isn't built off of retcons and without them we wouldn't have 40k as we know it. The other times when something has just suddenly showed up and been said to be there all along gets ignored (or at least not reacted to like this), but this particular one and it's suddenly claiming retcons are just bad and shouldn't happen and ruin the setting because the lore is some sacred thing, so how dare they. It's especially strange when you consider it's (supposedly) Custodes fans saying all that, because they're a 40k faction that basically only exists because of 2 quite big changes to their lore, with the retcon to them actually wearing full armour rather than their original miniature design still being the case, and the retcon that actually they've left Terra several times over the millenia after all.

 

There's also all the claiming GW was "gaslighting" that's just odd, as that twitter comment was was specifically to do with if they were brand new (like Primaris were), or a retcon where we just hadn't seen them before but they were meant to be there. It was talking about the status of them from within the setting, not trying to say that they've always been like this outside the setting from the real-world perspective (which would be a lie). I can't tell if those saying it's "gaslighting" either just don't realize that, or are choosing to ignore it..
 

Edited January 17 by TheVoidDragon

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

17 minutes ago, Plaguecaster said:

Oh wow they even made a statement about the female custodes debate in response to this 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/kcuvmezh/new-custodes-your-questions-answered/

 

So we now have female custodes but  they still state there never will be female space marines, 

Of course they did. GW tried to be casual last time and no big deal this like they've done with every other retcon but apparently it was spiteful and passive aggressive as I've seen said in other places. I didnt get those vibes but to each their own.

Personally unlike SM it was never explicitly said custodes could *only* be male and when the creation process is described as genetic alchemy bordering on sorcery it never really seemed like that big a lore deal unlike if they did female SM.

As for the models absolutely love them. I was fine with the old squat-stodes when they first came out as I was stoked they even got released but as soon as primaries came out the proportions seemed off for the custodes and my like for the models slipped a bit, funnily enough the old-new shield captain didn't help the matter.

[phandaal]

6 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

Snip

 

The reason I wrote what I did is because you were implying that people have a reason that is more than just "retcon bad" for not liking the lore change. I am saying yes, there is more to it than just the retcon aspect.

 

If you want a debate, you should just read all the back and forth on the Custodes subforum, because I promise you nothing new will be said here, and the only result will be to get this thread locked.

[Scribe]

16 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

It's the acting like there was some sort of clear "no" to the whole idea that makes this some sort of big sudden negative alteration to the faction that is the part that just seems strange to me, because Custodes were much more ambiguous over whether or not they were specifically male. Unlike Space Marines they have never been given a definitive statement either way.

 

I don't know why you'd try and frame this as something where the only reason it could happen is to "check a box" rather than be something that is genuinely felt is a beneficial thing for the faction that they just want, we know Aaron Dembski-Bowden had tried to get it to happen many years ago but was prevented because of the miniatures having been made already, was that him wanting that just to "check a box" too? 

 

Considering there is literally no story in which the biological sex of a gene crafted, psychology conditioned, alchemical golem, will be relevant?

 

Yeah, it's peak 2020s box checking, they just missed the covid/Twitter driven psychosis because it takes a bit of time to push sculpts out.

[Lathe Biosas]

I know that a lot of you will be updating your Custodes to the new sculpts, but worry about the future of your older Custodes models.

 

I will be more than happy to take your older, less dexterous Custodes into my home and make sure they spend a few hours each week shaking the dust off and giving glory to the Emperor.

 

I know, I know... I'm too kind. But I see it as a service not only to the Imperium but to all my fellow fraeters.

 

 

[Marshal Mittens]

I like the new Custodes. It feels like what they did with vanguard stormcast, where they made the armor more proportional. I think it looks good. 

[TheVoidDragon]

13 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Considering there is literally no story in which the biological sex of a gene crafted, psychology conditioned, alchemical golem, will be relevant?

 

Yeah, it's peak 2020s box checking, they just missed the covid/Twitter driven psychosis because it takes a bit of time to push sculpts out.

 

Again:

 

Quote

we know Aaron Dembski-Bowden had tried to get it to happen many years ago but was prevented because of the miniatures having been made already, was that him wanting that just to "check a box" too? 

 

Since around 2018 he wanted to do it.

 

Just because it's not something that'll be directly relevant to a story, doesn't mean it's something that wasn't really wanted but was instead done just for "box checking". Infact, i'm pretty sure if it was directly relevant, the complaints would instead just be about that...

Edited January 17 by TheVoidDragon

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, TheVoidDragon said:

Since around 2018 or so he wanted to do it.

 

Yeah, and I put Twitter Psychosis around 2016, to 2023.

[TheVoidDragon]

Just now, Scribe said:

 

Yeah, and I put Twitter Psychosis around 2016, to 2023.

 

Ah, a convenient timeframe just to dismiss everything you disagree with, then.  Right. 

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, Irate Khornate said:

I'm more concerned with the "step on me" crowd getting more ideas and expanding. It was weird and disturbing during the beginning of the retcon to see some of the most ardent defenders of it being for purely perverse reasons.

I kinda understand this, since the Female Marine crowd always liked the art of them being just......buffer Sisters for all intents and purposes, boob plate and all. Custodes suffer less issues of abnormal proportions I think, but I'm not close to being well versed on their lore in terms of creation. 

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

 

Ah, a convenient timeframe just to dismiss everything you disagree with, then.  Right. 

 

Everything? Hardly. Everything bumps right up to today.

 

However we certainly hit a critical mass eventually of people realizing a vocal minority on social media is not at all representation of reality. 

[TheVoidDragon]

17 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Everything? Hardly. Everything bumps right up to today.

 

However we certainly hit a critical mass eventually of people realizing a vocal minority on social media is not at all representation of reality. 

 

And you're using that to try and make out there's just no way that it could have actually been the opinion of that particular author with it being something they genuinely wanted to happen themselves, but instead simply it's "box checking" because it was said in the almost decade long period you've decided to conveniently dismiss because of twitter

Edited January 17 by TheVoidDragon

[Scribe]

Just now, TheVoidDragon said:

 

And you're using that to try and make out there's just no way that it could have actually been the opinion of that particular author with it being something they genuinely wanted to happen themselves, but instead simply because of the year it was said it must be "box checking" as the result of something on twitter 

 

Whats the story hook?!

 

Whats the argument that it improves the setting? What does it actually change in the setting? They were all male. Thats just how it was. So whats the argument for it NOT being the case that somehow makes narrative sense, setting sense, and improves anything when any external factor is ignored?

[Nephaston]

Minicompare in the proccess of being updated (busy day for Kukulza)

 

 

Very close when ignoring the top knots, but I do  like me a good plume.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Minicompare in the proccess of being updated (busy day for Kukulza)

 

 

Very close when ignoring the top knots, but I do  like me a good plume.

 

Ugh. Go back to the old legs, actually just update the old 'build' and make it a bit taller, with the more modern detail/quality and they would be a win. Now? Too thin, no shoulders, weak stormcast legs...no.

[TheVoidDragon]

1 minute ago, Scribe said:

 

Whats the story hook?!

 

Whats the argument that it improves the setting? What does it actually change in the setting? They were all male. Thats just how it was. So whats the argument for it NOT being the case that somehow makes narrative sense, setting sense, and improves anything when any external factor is ignored?

 

Why does it need a "story hook"? Why do you think it has to be some big setting changing thing to matter? it gives expanded options for more characters and miniature customization, that's all it needs to be.

 I'm sure others have already explained in the previous threads on this how they were never definitely stated to be all and exclusively male, so you can't really claim that's "just how it was". 

[Scribe]

Just now, TheVoidDragon said:

Why does it need a "story hook"? Why do you think it has to be some big setting changing thing to matter? it gives expanded options for more characters and miniature customization, that's all it needs to be.

 

Its a change. ADB was told 'no' they are male.

 

So, 'why does it need a hook, why does it need to matter'? It doesnt, as long as its understood its a 'check the box' for external reasons, sure, no problem.

[StrangerOrders]

Couple of thoughts.

 

First, I am so sick of the male vs. Female discussion. The war was fought and decided years ago, stop trying to restore Babylon to the Babylonians, even the Babylonians never did that. Its also kind of disingenuous in both sides when the same statements include usually display a glaring lack of understanding of their lore and recent history. 

 

Secondly, Custodes have been impaled on sticks (and in the traditional fashion), melted in an (admittedly magical) puddle, had their aurumite punched through by an angry nearly-naked WE and allegedly been made into furniture. If anything, the sketchiest claim is that they are in any way perfect. This does not in anyway contradict that GW did initially treat anyone with an exception to it as scum and both sides of the community went feral (in fairness, it was post covid and humanity has had a brutal wound dealt to its ability to disagree politely). Everyone still pretends that the respective camps do not include people with negative views on literally half the populace and people with barely disguised... preferences trying to make everyone party to them.

 

Thirdly, these sculpts are amazing and funnily enough there are actually some distinctions in build from what we've been shown. Its subtle but about half of the bodies have narrower torsos with a slightly concave breastplate and a 'girdle' structure, narrower legs and slightly broader hips (including the shield captain, look under the rope-thingy). I'm pleased as punch since what I have wanted since the choice was made was some volume of dimorphism because any doofus that knows a thing about armour knows that aesthetics and communicating idealized physique was actually ALOT of the point (beyond not-dying). See the rather creative medieval codpieces in a number of collections if you'd like evidence (along with the painfully narrow waists in some styles).

 

Fourth, I dig the heads, alot. I love the crazy metal-hawk and the Shield Captain has perfect Resting Diocletian-Face. I don't understand why shaved heads are some common but thats a 40k thing I've always suspected is just flying over my head. I do not love the new helmets as much due to the weird spikey cylinder thing though.

 

Odds on 40k Custodes going closer to this mold with whatever they get next edition?

Edited January 17 by StrangerOrders

[Hfran Morkai]

Ooh.

 

I wasn't sold on the original Custodes that came out with "Burning of Prospero" and I didn't like the proportions of their swords at all.

 

These, I like more.

 

I hope the Shield Captain can take a cool looking spear.

 

Also sincerely hope Sisters of Silence do end up getting some cool stuff too.

 

Prospero will burn.

[Scribe]

48 minutes ago, StrangerOrders said:

I'm pleased as punch since what I have wanted since the choice was made was some volume of dimorphism

 

This makes zero sense.

 

They are taken as infants, and genetically coded to "perfection", hand crafted.

 

The very real differences between the sexes would be obliterated, because you don't need wider child bearing hips to guard the Golden Throne, and you certainly wouldn't craft your Armour to accentuate ones curves.

 

Nonsense.

[StrangerOrders]

14 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

This makes zero sense.

 

They are taken as infants, and genetically coded to "perfection", hand crafted.

 

The very real differences between the sexes would be obliterated, because you don't need wider child bearing hips to guard the Golden Throne, and you certainly wouldn't craft your Armour to accentuate ones curves.

 

Nonsense.

As much as I don't want to get sucked into a debate I am going to ask a simple question.

 

By what metric is a roided male bodybuilder perfection? Beyond brute strength, its less suited for endurance (that build is very specifically explosive, its kind of sucky for alot of other physical tasks), calorically inefficient (that type of hypertrophy is far more vanity than actual strength gain), is easily detrimental to long-term health and is not typically a natural result (otherwise you'd have to tolerate fat deposits which are not actually a strict negative to that build and are actually a health negative to remove, not an imperfection).

 

Quite aside from the point that A. They weren't designed to guard a static location, that was an after-the-fact decision and B. That location is behind several billion levels of defenses... at which point having an 80s definition of a male body-builder (who have universally aged poorly) 'perfectly' suited to a task? If anything at that point you'd arguably just be better off filling the room with assassin pods). The language in most of their recent lore has been perfection in form and ideal companions, more Olympian than anything else and explicitly drawing attention to their differences being deliberate.

 

If anything I am kind of shocked you have such an odd definition of perfection.

 

And, forgive the additional question, why would a mono-build that destroys sexes be male? Thats nearly equivalent to saying that there is no objective value in a female build beyond child-bearing. In fact, men with wider hips are ironically typically better suited to increased strength so narrower hips is actually a design flaw from that approach...

 

Its just... honestly not an angle of disagreement I expected, and I say this with respect to the men who really want and/or are attracted to the roided look, its honestly a pretty impressive thing to reach even if probably not advisable for longevity or performance. But to each their own goals.

Edited January 17 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

30 minutes ago, StrangerOrders said:

By what metric is a roided male bodybuilder perfection?

 

Visual, by a certain definition. Nobody has made an argument for 80s/90s mass monsters being the definition of perfection and therefore the Custodes body type however.

 

I see now however that isnt your point, and again you seem to have really missed the mark.

 

Peak combat form, physically, is going to look a LOT more like say...an NFL running back, an MMA fighter, an Olympic wrestler. Functional strength, and endurance.

 

Nobody is, or at least I am not, arguing that a Custode is going to look like Dorian Yates. They are going to look like, an enhanced, larger, MUCH LARGER, Christian Mccaffrey, George St Pierre, or Aleksandr Karelin.

 

Now, as for the comment about hips, that was in response to you claiming that dimorphism within the 'custodes bodytype' would be...somehow a given. It wouldnt be. It makes no sense. Wide hips, narrow hips, we are talking about turning babies, into genetically perfect giants, and you think that the female traits would somehow remain after that, or that (absurd as it is) the male traits of size and strength would be....turned down?

 

This makes no sense, at all, on any level.

 

NOW, granted, this an absurd discussion about lore of dubious quality, for a made up game of toy soldiers but ask yourself this.

 

You have the ability to craft 'perfect' super soldiers, assuming you get access to the source material (a baby) early enough.

 

You claim this dimorphism is a good thing, which means, nearly by definition, that you expect and understand that there is a difference between the sexes.

 

If you are not going to obliterate any sexual differences in bone structure, fat content, and so on, and push the 'ideal' well what does that ideal look like for your perfect super soldier, defender of the Emperor?

 

It's not Dorian Yates, but it sure as hell looks a lot more like Aleksandr Karelin, than any woman.