++ The Brotherhood of Dust - A Thousand Sons Community ++

[Paladin777]

My guess is that we will have access to regular sorcerers that take from the dark hereticus list, and our exalted will take from a thousand sons list like the plague caster in death guard.

 

In any case, I think the death guard codex will likely be an interesting tell.

[Raven1]

In any case, I think the death guard codex will likely be an interesting tell.

Absolutely the Death Guard 'dex will be far more like the TS 'dex than then C:CSM is.

[Skerr]

Both would be ideal

[Paladin777]

I agree, but they seem to be allergic to giving a single sorcerer/psyker multiple disciplines so far. ( which I am not totally opposed to, as I think that would help keep power creep down).

[Souljet]

I agree, but they seem to be allergic to giving a single sorcerer/psyker multiple disciplines so far. ( which I am not totally opposed to, as I think that would help keep power creep down).

True, but Eldar got 2 disciplines and effectively 9 powers straight out of the Index. I'd be very surprised if they didn't have expanded disciplines to choose from when their codex drops.

If there's one faction in 40k that should have more powers it should be TS.

My fingers are crossed!

[Skerr]

I agree that letting a lot or even some factions access to 2 or more disciplines is overdoing it though may not be far fetched for our faction.

 

Sure I am biased though It's not fa stretch that our faction might have access to 2 disciplines since an access and continued quest for knowledge and dark secrets leading to glory, power or whatever hidden scheme we might be hiding is our thing.  7th was a different animal I know and comparing 7th and 8th is like comparing apples to oranges but I will do it anyway.  We had access to most or all general disciplines plus our own faction in 7th so 2 in this edition is not that much of a stretch.

 

Plus as mentioned here all ready spells like warptime and prescience are right up our ally and would be a shame to lose them though am excited to see what the developers come up with.

 

It might be that if we get 6 those two might be recycled which I am cool with.  Would love to have access to the Tzeentch spell that buffs attack, toughness or strength.  Strength 5 SOTs would be right fine! 

Who here is looking forward to an 8th edition Doombolt!

[Paladin777]

I don't doubt us having access to multiple disciplines across our army, I was just saying that there doesn't seem to be any psykers/sorcerers (single model) that have access to multiple disciplines. This includes eldar. (I checked.)

[Souljet]

It's probably safe to assume we'll get some kind of expanded list of powers. Whether that be a dedicated TS discipline of more than 6 powers, or a combination of TS, Dark Hereticus, and maybe even Tzeentch disciplines.
They also have to find a way of moving the exalted sorcerors kit. At the moment it's practically worthless as there's no point picking one over Ahriman, let alone a coven of 3.

[Paladin777]

In that light, it would make sense for exalted' to get access to a Sons only discipline that has a lot of powers in it...

[TheMelancholic]

Man, Tzeentch psykers need some love.

 

Their disciplines (both Daemon and CSM) have consistently been among the worst in the game. I'm okay with TZ being the "blasting" lore, but for the love of the dark gods at least make it somewhat consistent and useful.

 

Based on what we've seen from the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch so far (admittedly only 3 spells), I don't have super high hopes. Boon of Mutation gives a buff that's only really useful to melee units (unless you roll +1 toughness, but are you really going to cast on those horrors and hope for the 1/3) and Treason of Tzeentch is unreliable as all hell (need an 8 to cast, which also already above average and need to beat a Character's LD which is probably around 7-9). Bolt is the only useful one but as a targeted smite on a 9+ only a LoC or Fateweaver can get it off reliably.

 

Granted this is the Daemon Lore, not the one TS may or may not be getting...but I feel like it's not setting a good precedent so far.

 

Maybe a bit of wish-listing, but this is what I'd like to see from a TS Lore.

 

• A mobility spell, ala Warptime. This is assuming they can't access Dark Hereticus but I'll get on to that in a bit.
• A good blaster spell. Maybe something targeted or maybe just "closest target" like smite, but at least reliable enough that I'll try to cast it.
• Something funky. GW hasn't been terribly creative with powers yet and I'd love to see the creative team flex their brain muscles a little more. If it ties in with TS fluff, cool. If it's useful as well, even better.

 

Now here's something I've been mulling over. If TS get access to their own lore (and it would be a little disappointing if they didn't) I'd think it at least somewhat likely that they will also retain their access to Dark Hereticus either by design or by technicality.

 

Exalted Sorcerers in the Index chose powers from the Dark Hereticus list and even if the ones in the TS codex get a different pick of them, one could always take an Exalted Sorcerer and say it's from the Index (not the Codex) and thus making use of the Hereticus discipline. GW has made it clear already that you can use the rules from the index (case in point, Bike Lords/Sorcerers and Lords/Sorcerers on Daemonic Mounts) even if they aren't represented in the Codex. You could argue that the Codex rules override the Index rules but I personally would be happy with an opponent choosing from either list with their Exalted Sorcerer as long as they didn't mix them on the same guy.

 

If it's not GWs intention to let Exalted Sorcerers pick from Dark Hereticus then they will probably slap on an FAQ making clear that the newer ruleset in the TS codex is to be used over the one from the index, but until then I'd say RAW you could use either power list.

 

Alternatively (as some on this thread have already suggested) the TS discipline (and possibly the TS discipline only) will only be given to Exalted Sorcerers and special characters while normal sorcerers can pick from Dark Hereticus.

 

Or if GW is feeling particularly lazy they might just do a re-hash of Dark Hereticus with different "Thousand Sons Themed" names for each of the spells. I honestly wouldn't put it past them, they've done exactly this before (CSM and Loyalist marine disciplines were mechanically identical with different names last ed).

 

Anyway, I have my fingers crossed that TS will come out with some good rules this edition. Their models and fluff have always been very cool.

[Archaeinox]

If the powers represent the spectrum of what Thousand Sons are capable of such as teleporting large squads and characters immense distances, flinging effective fire spells for low cost, and other goofy treason type spells, I don't care if all we get is Smite + TS discipline.

 

Dark Hereticus is nice, yeah. The option for 2 would be ideal, so I agree there.. I'm just saying that it will be my first literal codex with a Thousand Sons marine on the front of it so I won't be complaining upon arrival.

[Skerr]

Good points Arch

[Zodd1888]

I'd be super pumped if there was one for each cult of Prospero. I realize that'd make us the most over-saturated, but maybe make TS and DH disciplines primary disciplines with one power for our Aspirants from the Cult lists.

[Archaeinox]

I don't think a TS discipline with 6 powers (including Weaver of Fates) and 1 power for the 5 cults would be too much at all, considering we can just choose powers now. You can really tailor characters to a theme because let's face it unless it's 1. a big game or 2. you are spamming psykers to goof around, 6 powers period would be sufficient.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm really hoping that Thousand Sons will actually be a much more sorcery involved army than in the past, more on the tier of eldar. However, it seems that the current psyker mechanics themselves are a obstacle. If, for example, 1ksons lists rely on spamming psychic powers from squad sergeant sorcs, then their effectiveness is going to be highly susceptible to bad dice rolling. Plasma spam lists can negate their risk with the right use of buffs and auras, but smite spam cannot.

 

I'd like to see Thousand Sons be relatively weaker than other lists without powers, and then have a ton of nasty and tricky powers. But heavy psyker lists suffer greatly from the inability to spend points to increase your chance of casting powers, mitigate Perils, or cast power more often. For a psyker based army to really work out, 1ksons sons will need some sort of the following:

 

- The ability to cast the same power more than once (or at least attempt it, so that if you fail or are denied another caster can try the same power again.)

- Ability to somehow spend points to add to psychic power rolls

- Ability to spend points and/or Command points to negate the effects of perils (beyond the generic re-roll.) In a heavy psyker army you'll average a perils a turn.

- Squad level sorc power other than smite. Rubrics+smite spam has some uses, but is generally going to be worse than regular plasma spam lists

 

I'm not confident we'll get enough of these to make it work. This could easily end up being Codex: Inferno Spam instead of Codex: Thousand Sons

[Skerr]

I see what you mean on having our casters doing the heavy lifting and feel we experienced that in 7th. Expensive and ineffective rubrics, expensive, limited SOTs, etc and winning or losing depended heavily on the psychic phase.

 

In 8th we have better units, imo, overall though one might say they are not the most versatile. This is where our psychers now shine with utility spells adding versatility to our core bad ass if not a bit limited (tough and shooty) units. Warptime, the invuln buff and prescience are great examples of this.

 

Throw in our smite spam which can add up and we are in a good foundation. A couple more utility and a devestating doombolt variation would be sweet. I would not mind a buff spell either similar to Tzeentch chaos boon. I would probably only use it on cc units like SOTs, tzangoors, spawn, brutes...

[TheMelancholic]

 

- The ability to cast the same power more than once (or at least attempt it, so that if you fail or are denied another caster can try the same power again.)

- Ability to somehow spend points to add to psychic power rolls

- Ability to spend points and/or Command points to negate the effects of perils (beyond the generic re-roll.) In a heavy psyker army you'll average a perils a turn.

- Squad level sorc power other than smite. Rubrics+smite spam has some uses, but is generally going to be worse than regular plasma spam lists

 

I predict that we'll get a lot of this kind of stuff in one for or another, whether through a legion trait, warlord traits, specific relics or (most likely) stratagems.

 

Pure guessing here, but I can foresee some of the following as stratagems:

• Ignore a perils (Probably somewhere from 1-2 CP)
• Manifest another power (Identical to the regular CSM Tzeentch Stratagem)
• Change a power(another copy)
• Improve an Invul save (1-2 CP)
• Re-roll or otherwise modify an attempt to cast (1-2 CP)
• Autocast an undeniable power but you perils (2-3 CP)
• Smite goes up one "step", making a D3 smite D6 and a D6 Smite 2d6 (1-2 CP)
• Some collective psychic attack like the Vindicator stratagem, but with Sorcerers/Exalted Sorcerers instead (1-2 CP)
• Deny the Witch enhancement (1 CP)
• Something to do with Tzzangors (1-3 CP depending on what it does)
• Probably other regular CSM stratagems (VoTLW, Inferno Shells, Blasphemous Machines)

 

This is just conjecture okay, but I have a gut feeling that most of the TS flavor and mechanics will come from whatever Stratagems they get. I say this because I seriously doubt that TS units in their own will be much different from their appearance in the index. I don't mind stratagems however and TS will probably have a lot of CP floating around (unlike regular CSM you have decent cheap and elite troops choices to fill up battalions).

 

What I'm not so certain about is whether or not TS will get a "Legion Trait" like everyone else, because they are all ready "different" enough to be a distinct force. If they do end up getting one it will probably be something simple (but useful) like "+1 to all attempts to manifest powers" or "can attempt to manifest a power more than once per psychic phase".

 

Regardless of what they do and don't get, TS are bound to play a lot different from last edition. I feel like what really let them down was a lack of good "battery" units to harvest warp charges from. Now that that whole concept has been done away with and that psykers are back to being self sufficient, I feel like TS is on more even footing with other "psyker" armies like GK and Eldar.

 

Anyway, we'll see when Death Guard comes out anyway. I think that will be a great indicator for the direction GW are taking for TS.

[Prot]

Guys,

 

Working with what we know today, allow me to switch gears abit. with the new Defiler cost, is anyone trying it?

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

I want one so bad! just so I can fight back the nightmares it has caused me as an imperial player for the past 15+ years!

[Paladin777]

I will probably use one of my next game just to see how it works. I have it set up with the reaper autocannon, and a havoc launcher

[Zodd1888]

Not a super fan without a Daemon Prince near. 4+ to hit degrading to 5+ for that much is pretty expensive. DP casting for the +1 and RR 1's improves them. Additionally, with so many D6 shot options I feel like it's a CP hog and as an elite force we're already going to have fewer than most.

 

Has the potential to be good, but it requires a list to be built around it IMO.

[Grendaxe]

I feel like daemon engines should just be better in general. I mean they can keep reducing the cost of the units but it just ends up having to deploy 3 of them to have a impact on the game.

I get that not everything shouldn't be BS 2/3+. It makes all units feel too similar. But i like that forge world idea for example in which daemon engines get a better WS when the amount of wounds remaining goes down. Not sure if it actually works because movement is also reduced but i like the idea. It makes a daemon engines stand out from regular machines.

[Zodd1888]

Wishlist: Tsons Legion Tactic is add -1 AP to a maximum of -3. Or Strategem?

 

Would this make SO and Rubrics big enough threats?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Wishlist: Tsons Legion Tactic is add -1 AP to a maximum of -3. Or Strategem?

 

Would this make SO and Rubrics big enough threats?

What I really want to see is Aspiring Sorcs getting psychic powers to buff their squads, not just smite. Like a power to give them +1 str to shooting, or advance and shoot, or whatever.

[Souljet]

Guys,

 

Working with what we know today, allow me to switch gears abit. with the new Defiler cost, is anyone trying it?

Are we technically able to bring them with the new points cost yet? Either way, I haven't used one as previously mentioned the BS is terrible when moving and/or when they're below half wounds. I might wait for the codex before committing to buying one and then if so, it'll be a backfield model to protect against deep strikers I think.

It's also a shame there's not a way they can take the twin heavy flamer and the scourge together as that would make the model so much more attractive to field.

 

On another note, how have people gone with spawn? I think for me they'll be a must have from now on. I've found a unit of these supported by a winged daemon prince and/or a jump pack/disc sorcerer casting warp time to keep them up and get them into combat makes them an incredibly lethal unit for the cost. Add on a combo of any of prescience, diabolical strength, and weaver of fates and it starts to get a little messy. Even if they don't make it into combat they can be a fantastic distraction unit as your opponent is forced to deal with them.