[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[1ncarnadine]

This thread should be renamed the "Pessimism Power Hour" :P

 

Cassian Dracos has a model. It's literally Bray'arth Ashmantle. Most of those I don't expect to ever see, nor should anyone. Rylanor, Shabran Darr, Hol Beloth, Durak Rask, Saul Tarvitz, Erasmus Golg? They are all mega dead and relatively easy to convert. Orth will not get a model because he is in a freaking tank. Some of those, like Maloghurst and Ventanus, are "someday" models that they haven't had time for, but definitely plan on. They've had plans and concept art for Maloghurst for ages. He is/was supposed to have an interlocking base with Horus. 

 

Hvarl screams "we have Character Series plans," though. Weird wargear, excellent rules, cool fluff? I would assume they're being asked if he'll get a model a lot. If not, get on that.

 

Grieux asked earlier how many totally new characters FW made models of, and the answer is actually 5 (soon to be 6 with Scoria). Otherwise it's Zardu Layak, Armillus Dynat, Draykavac, the Auxilia surgeon, and the daemon Cor'bax. With Magnus dropping soon as well, that will be 6/33, or ~18%. It's a realistic possibility that if they get sculptors back to the Character Series in earnest, Hvarl would be a solid candidate. 

[Baluc]

This thread should be renamed the "Pessimism Power Hour"

 

Cassian Dracos has a model. It's literally Bray'arth Ashmantle. Most of those I don't expect to ever see, nor should anyone. Rylanor, Shabran Darr, Hol Beloth, Durak Rask, Saul Tarvitz, Erasmus Golg? They are all mega dead and relatively easy to convert. Orth will not get a model because he is in a freaking tank. Some of those, like Maloghurst and Ventanus, are "someday" models that they haven't had time for, but definitely plan on. They've had plans and concept art for Maloghurst for ages. He is/was supposed to have an interlocking base with Horus. 

 

Hvarl screams "we have Character Series plans," though. Weird wargear, excellent rules, cool fluff? I would assume they're being asked if he'll get a model a lot. If not, get on that.

 

Grieux asked earlier how many totally new characters FW made models of, and the answer is actually 5 (soon to be 6 with Scoria). Otherwise it's Zardu Layak, Armillus Dynat, Draykavac, the Auxilia surgeon, and the daemon Cor'bax. With Magnus dropping soon as well, that will be 6/33, or ~18%. It's a realistic possibility that if they get sculptors back to the Character Series in earnest, Hvarl would be a solid candidate. 

 

...I like that you just left out the characters that didn't fit your narrative. FW does whichever models it chooses to do, whenever they choose to do it. There is no reasoning it out. Malaghurst has been on the block to do for 6 years now? Not even a WiP at an event. There is no reason for optimism. When dealing with FW you should take a "it would be nice", and not "I wonder when" attitude. 

 

Anyway.

 

@Bladewolf. 

 

I think you need a more fire and forget combat unit. Russ, and his Wolf-Kin Can fill that role pretty well up to about 3k. What sorts of missions do you play? At 3k I think your army may be a bit wee. 

[Runefyre]

This thread should be renamed the "Pessimism Power Hour"

 

Cassian Dracos has a model. It's literally Bray'arth Ashmantle. Most of those I don't expect to ever see, nor should anyone. Rylanor, Shabran Darr, Hol Beloth, Durak Rask, Saul Tarvitz, Erasmus Golg? They are all mega dead and relatively easy to convert. Orth will not get a model because he is in a freaking tank. Some of those, like Maloghurst and Ventanus, are "someday" models that they haven't had time for, but definitely plan on. They've had plans and concept art for Maloghurst for ages. He is/was supposed to have an interlocking base with Horus. 

 

Hvarl screams "we have Character Series plans," though. Weird wargear, excellent rules, cool fluff? I would assume they're being asked if he'll get a model a lot. If not, get on that.

 

Grieux asked earlier how many totally new characters FW made models of, and the answer is actually 5 (soon to be 6 with Scoria). Otherwise it's Zardu Layak, Armillus Dynat, Draykavac, the Auxilia surgeon, and the daemon Cor'bax. With Magnus dropping soon as well, that will be 6/33, or ~18%. It's a realistic possibility that if they get sculptors back to the Character Series in earnest, Hvarl would be a solid candidate. 

Personally I don't care if Hvarl gets a model, I prefer converting my own characters anway. What I want are my Grey Slayer upgrade kits, as they're the only troops I can take.

 

And BTW, not all of us are negative, just realistic and not afraid to call FW out on crappy rules writing, then charging us an arm and a leg for it. Plus I'm tired of folks who don't play Wolves constantly calling us power gamers just because we want our rules written with clarity (varagyr and frost weapons anyone?). That tends to make me come off as more negative than I intend  

 

 

 

Anyway, I've been pondering how to collect my 30k Wolves while I wait on out kits to come out (I'm afraid to convert my own, then have FW release even more awesome official upgrade bits).

 

So I've turned to Armoured Breakthrough, going for more vehicles and focus on infantry when Grey Slayers are released. This obviously takes some liberties regarding the vague wording surrounding the use of Grey Slayers as mandatory troops, but I believe based off Russ's rules that "replacement" compulsory troops are legal so long as the RoW expressly states they (the alternate troops choice) must be taken as compulsory troops.

 

Unfortunately what that means is more "generic" lists as it's harder to be unique when using legion vehicles.

 

Armoured Breakthrough (2500 points)

 

Hvarl Red-blade

 

Command squad (tartaros armour, chainfists, phobos DT)

 

(2x) moritat cosul (artificer armour, refractor field, jump pack, plasma pistol, Great Frost Blade)

 

(4x) Predators (las-cannon sponsons)

 

xiphon pattern interceptor (ground tracking auguries)

 

(2x) Predators (executioner plasma cannon, armoured ceramite, combi-bolter)

 

Sicaran Venator

 

Typhon

 

 

Thoughts?

[Baluc]

What are the motivations for take Red-Blade over a cheaper praetor?

[Lord Blackwood]

 

@Bladewolf. 

 

I think you need a more fire and forget combat unit. Russ, and his Wolf-Kin Can fill that role pretty well up to about 3k. What sorts of missions do you play? At 3k I think your army may be a bit wee. 

 

I agree it feels a bit sparse , I wanted to fit a third veteran tactical squad into the list but It was either that or the  flyer , and I feel like the flyer will provide more checklist coverage.   

 

You are correct about Russ and his wolves going their own way once they disembark.  leaving the catprachtii  and the praetor to go seek their own glory. 

 

In earlier drafts of the list I was going with the Archeon over the Lancer because that hellstorm template is fantastic , I swapped back to the lancer for the save in close combat and the potential i5  to take down other knights / leviathans before they strike  

 

Its like Anti Horde vs Anti Superheavy  / specialist walker

 

[Jackalwolf]

I actually really like that they don't release all characters since that Inspires hobbyists to make their own versions. Here's some of my renditions of characters i don't think they'll ever release:

 

Maloghurst

http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah128/Grieux/Legio%20XVI/C829BAB2-2052-4235-AA60-7BBC01C808E0_zpstpixqd7c.jpg

 

Lil Horus

http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah128/Grieux/Legio%20XVI/eb2349c9-73af-42a0-a282-802750f3f3df_zpsolbhqoaq.jpg

 

Saul Tarvitz

http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah128/Grieux/Legio%20III/C5793A60-EBF5-4EF2-B7F1-33DE441299F4_zpssdbavj7p.jpg

 

Now of course I understand not all hobbyists enjoy making conversions but there's a wide range of pieces to kitbash from and more that will be coming so you can easily do your own unique for real characters.

 

EDIT: Thanks for having my back Baluc :)

Edited March 30, 2017 by Grieux

[Baluc]

 

 

@Bladewolf. 

 

I think you need a more fire and forget combat unit. Russ, and his Wolf-Kin Can fill that role pretty well up to about 3k. What sorts of missions do you play? At 3k I think your army may be a bit wee. 

 

I agree it feels a bit sparse , I wanted to fit a third veteran tactical squad into the list but It was either that or the  flyer , and I feel like the flyer will provide more checklist coverage.   

 

You are correct about Russ and his wolves going their own way once they disembark.  leaving the catprachtii  and the praetor to go seek their own glory. 

 

In earlier drafts of the list I was going with the Archeon over the Lancer because that hellstorm template is fantastic , I swapped back to the lancer for the save in close combat and the potential i5  to take down other knights / leviathans before they strike  

 

Its like Anti Horde vs Anti Superheavy  / specialist walker

 

 

 

Yeah I see what you mean. I'm actually working on a 3k list myself right now. Not really sure what direction I want to take it in. Armoured Spearhead seems like a decent place to start but, it really doesn't seem all that interesting to play just AV14 boxes...

[Grimtooth]

Forgot to ask,

 

Is anyone taking Predator squadron as a Heavy Choice for a Pale Hunter infantry based outflanking list with Hvral?

[Lord Blackwood]

 

 

 

Yeah I see what you mean. I'm actually working on a 3k list myself right now. Not really sure what direction I want to take it in. Armoured Spearhead seems like a decent place to start but, it really doesn't seem all that interesting to play just AV14 boxes...

 

 

I like the Idea of Armored Spearhead , but I also feel like its too many points in transports i mean dont get me wrong raiders are great and i like Russ in the spartan as you saw from my own list , but its just ... so many points in transports for a list that already has to dump  points into characters. 

 

It can work though , I think it can  at 3k 

[Grimtooth]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah I see what you mean. I'm actually working on a 3k list myself right now. Not really sure what direction I want to take it in. Armoured Spearhead seems like a decent place to start but, it really doesn't seem all that interesting to play just AV14 boxes...

 

I like the Idea of Armored Spearhead , but I also feel like its too many points in transports i mean dont get me wrong raiders are great and i like Russ in the spartan as you saw from my own list , but its just ... so many points in transports for a list that already has to dump points into characters.

 

It can work though , I think it can at 3k

I have consistently seen Russ being run in Spartans with damn good success. Gets him into the mix and then backs out for supporting fire.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Brother Ramses

[betrayer41]

 

 

 

 

Yeah I see what you mean. I'm actually working on a 3k list myself right now. Not really sure what direction I want to take it in. Armoured Spearhead seems like a decent place to start but, it really doesn't seem all that interesting to play just AV14 boxes...

 

I like the Idea of Armored Spearhead , but I also feel like its too many points in transports i mean dont get me wrong raiders are great and i like Russ in the spartan as you saw from my own list , but its just ... so many points in transports for a list that already has to dump  points into characters. 

 

It can work though , I think it can  at 3k 

 

This is what i am going to shoot for

[TheWolfLord]

I don't want to create models for Grey Slayers, Deathsworn and Varagyr then replace them once the official kits come out.

 

Therefore I've built a list around Veterans as troops using Russ and 2 extra 10 man squads of Assault Marines.

 

My Heavy choice is a Spartan and my Fast choices are a Squadron of Land Speeders with Graviton/Melta, a Javelin Squadron with Las/Melta and a Lightning.

 

1 unit of Veterans are simply in a Rhino, 1 are in the Spartan with Russ, the Wulfkin, a Praetor and a Speaker.

 

The Assault Squads each have an Apothecary and every unit has a couple of Power Weapons and a fully equipped Sergeant with Fist.

 

It's not the list I can see me using everytime but it's fast, can deal with armour and should be fun. I know it'll struggle against some lists but I didn't get into 30k to run competitive lists so I'm not fussed

[Hfran Morkai]

See I reckon I'll end up using Grey Slayers kits for Veterans and more specialised troopers. But I do tend to prefer a cleaner look anyway. I'm only building two 10 man units of Slayers for the moment anyway due to Orbital Assault (I'm thinking when I want to bulk my list out to add non Slayer choices as they're pretty sweet in combat but I'm worried they won't get much chance to charge with them coming out of pods. Of course 8th Ed might allow some forms of assault from deep strike which would change things significantly).

 

Back to tactics,

 

At which point should I be considering anti-aircraft options? I dropped out of the game in 5th so flyers weren't something I previously had to worry about. I'm actually pretty clueless about flyers barring interceptor, for example could a Storm Eagle (want one in my bigger lists for my Terminator squad)/Fire Raptor be an adequate anti-flyer platform or should I consider the Xiphon (which I love the model for)? Or should I get a Mortis dread and stick it in a FA Dreadclaw?

[TheWolfLord]

Using another flyer as anti flyer duty relies on your opponents coming in from reserves before yours does.

 

 

Interceptor is the best option as even if you don't destroy your opponents flyer you should force it to jink before it has a chance to fire.

 

The Mortis is a good option as even if your opponent doesn't bring any flyers it's still useful.

[Baluc]

Honestly I would just ignore flyers. If you know your opponent has flyers, I would choose to go second to protect against them dropping in to hover mode and denying objectives turn 5. But other than the Fire Raptor they don't have a ton of shooting that is going to upset you. And, the Fire Raptor is mostly immune to the majority of affordable/otherwise useful Anti-Aircraft fire. Storm Eagle wants to drop of units so worry about killing what is inside.

[Dantay VI]

Dont most folks ignore the transport capability of the Storm Eagle and just use it as an anti-tank gunship using the lascannons and missile racks... and if close enough (unlikely) the twin linked meltas?

 

Then run the Raptor for anti infantry/ light vehicle duties?

[Purge the Daemon]

Dont most folks ignore the transport capability of the Storm Eagle and just use it as an anti-tank gunship using the lascannons and missile racks... and if close enough (unlikely) the twin linked meltas?

 

Then run the Raptor for anti infantry/ light vehicle duties?

I feel most people just don't take storm eagles. Awful to put together expensive both pints and dollar and as a gun platform are meh. Fire raptors and lightnings are the normal go to flyers. Lightnings there isn't much defense behind Interceptor as they are more of a one and done thing. Fire raptors can justify non Interceptor shooting but depends if they exist in your meta. Most of the other fliers aren't to scary xiphons can hurt but are also paper and a snap firing Sicaran will eat it same goes for avengers. Until you get to the point where thunderhawk and Stormbird are rampant there isn't to much anti air to worry about at least from a transport perspective.

[Runefyre]

So has anyone thought about taking Vigilators to fill out the mandatory HQ requirements?

 

Like around 2.5k and greater take two vigilators and infiltrate+scout large Grey Slayer blobs right into the enemy's face.

 

Turn 2 detach the vigilators so the GS's can run+charge. Give the vigilators GFB's and charge them with the GS's to unlock Fury of the Pack (if taking Pale Hunters).

[Baluc]

Lightning has too much range to really intercept, and you have to declare the use of the targetting array at the beginning of your turn before the flyer comes in. So its a little cumbersome to use anyway. 

 

Best bet if you play against a lightning and use a spartan is to just move 18" turn one. Against the Fire Raptor try to make its angles and poor as possible. 

[Baluc]

So has anyone thought about taking Vigilators to fill out the mandatory HQ requirements?

 

Like around 2.5k and greater take two vigilators and infiltrate+scout large Grey Slayer blobs right into the enemy's face.

 

Turn 2 detach the vigilators so the GS's can run+charge. Give the vigilators GFB's and charge them with the GS's to unlock Fury of the Pack (if taking Pale Hunters).

 

Red-Blade is more efficient for scouting multiple units. But, Vigilators are pretty good in Assault Marines. Scout, Stealth, MTC are all excellent rules on Assault Marines.

[Runefyre]

 

So has anyone thought about taking Vigilators to fill out the mandatory HQ requirements?

 

Like around 2.5k and greater take two vigilators and infiltrate+scout large Grey Slayer blobs right into the enemy's face.

 

Turn 2 detach the vigilators so the GS's can run+charge. Give the vigilators GFB's and charge them with the GS's to unlock Fury of the Pack (if taking Pale Hunters).

 

Red-Blade is more efficient for scouting multiple units. But, Vigilators are pretty good in Assault Marines. Scout, Stealth, MTC are all excellent rules on Assault Marines.

 

 

Red-Blade is great for Scout, but vigilators can grant full-on infiltrate if you exchange their power armour for recon armour.

 

That would give them both the infiltrate deployment AND scout redeployment + stealth bonus.

 

Seems pretty good to me.

[Baluc]

 

 

So has anyone thought about taking Vigilators to fill out the mandatory HQ requirements?

 

Like around 2.5k and greater take two vigilators and infiltrate+scout large Grey Slayer blobs right into the enemy's face.

 

Turn 2 detach the vigilators so the GS's can run+charge. Give the vigilators GFB's and charge them with the GS's to unlock Fury of the Pack (if taking Pale Hunters).

 

Red-Blade is more efficient for scouting multiple units. But, Vigilators are pretty good in Assault Marines. Scout, Stealth, MTC are all excellent rules on Assault Marines.

 

 

Red-Blade is great for Scout, but vigilators can grant full-on infiltrate if you exchange their power armour for recon armour.

 

That would give them both the infiltrate deployment AND scout redeployment + stealth bonus.

 

Seems pretty good to me.

 

 

That won't work. Infiltrate has to be conferred before deployment, and you can't attach IC to units until you deploy them. Since the unit doesn't have infiltrate it has to be deployed normally and you can't deploy infiltrators until everything else has been deployed by both players. Alternatively both can be placed in reserve (in which case they would gain outflank).

 

The long and short of it is you can't use an IC to give a unit Infiltrate and then deploy as an infiltrator. You can however deploy the unit, and then after deployment deploy infiltrating units in your deployment zone (nominally with a unit) and then use the scout rule. 

[Runefyre]

Huh, well that trashes that idea.

 

Basically outflanking (using Red-blade) is like the only option we have to get GS's close to the enemy without just bull-rushing the enemy (something I hate doing, it feels terribley....World Eaters).

Edited March 31, 2017 by Runefyre

[Baluc]

Well If you think of SW as an assault army, you pretty much have to take your direction from WE. We are at a 10, SW should be between 6-8 depending on the opposition. 

[Runefyre]

Well If you think of SW as an assault army, you pretty much have to take your direction from WE. We are at a 10, SW should be between 6-8 depending on the opposition. 

I guess it's hard to think of the Wolves as anything BUT and assault based army, considering all our bonuses are centered around combat.

 

That's kinda why I'm having a hard time finding an "identiy" when I'm list-building, it ends up feeling like I'm building a weaker World Eaters list or a weak White Scars list.

 

On the other hand, we don't really get any shooting bonuses (actually penalties, so kinda the opposite), so I guess it's really all we've got.