The Castigators

[Commissar Molotov]

they're arguably the best DIY in the Liber (if not the 40k community)

 

'arguably' means 'may or may not'. :lol: As we don't know anything about the Master of the Household, the Secretarius and the like, we can't say "They are...", only "It's likely they are..." - there are no certainties here.

 

Depending on the Chapter it's not hard to believe that maybe in some Chapters the position of Lord of the Household would taken up a regular Human from the ranks of the Chapter Serfs.

But, in my opinion :D this wouldn't work with the Castigators or any other marine chapter. The serfs are the chapter's, one could almost say, slaves - akin to the state of the serfs in Tsarist Russia. The astartes would want to remind the serfs that they are in charge and hold power over them. One such way of doing this could be to have the Lord of the Household as an astartes, as a physical reminder.

 

I'm not sure that the serfs would be 'slaves'. There was an interesting thread in Amicus a few weeks ago about the serfs - I think they're servants, but not slaves. William King's novels showed the serfs crewing the Space Wolves' vessels, and they seemed to enjoy a relatively decent existence. Whilst the Castigators are arrogant and bigoted in the extreme, they don't seem to believe that they are inherently better than unaugmented humans, so I don't think they would enjoy being cruel to the Serfs for the sake of it.

 

Plus, ignorance is bliss - if they've never known anything else, they probably wouldn't object to their lives as servants of the Astartes. They would hold their own traditions, celebrations and the like, so it wouldn't be ceaseless, unending toil.

[Ferrus Manus]

Plus, ignorance is bliss - if they've never known anything else, they probably wouldn't object to their lives as servants of the Astartes. They would hold their own traditions, celebrations and the like, so it wouldn't be ceaseless, unending toil.

Perhaps. Looking at them from this angle reminds me of the Helots of Sparta. Maybe it would be useful to take a look at them.

[Commissar Molotov]

I must confess that my knowledge of classical civilisations is quite limited. I don't know much about Helots, but google's helped sate my curiosity. :) The Helots are very interesting, actually - though the Spartans certainly did treat them exceedingly badly! With that said, they did keep their own traditions and the like - so I can see where you're coming from.

 

Warriors of Ultramar suggests that the Mortifactors have around nine thousand serfs. A huge number, but it just shows the logistical challenge of running a Space Marine Chapter.

 

Those of you with the Dark Heresy rulebook (I know Nash Trickster has one...) will remember the section on the Misericord, a giant space vessel that plies the Calixis Sector. The crew is divided into dozens of castes. There's castes like the Scoruhand Brotherhood, the Company of Imbeciles, the Lamplighter's Guild, the Followers of the Wire and the Suturer's Parliament. The book says: 'All have their own baffling traditions, from the large wood and paper animal masks of the Obeyer's Guild to the ritual removal of an ear from every member of the Enginists... the oficers of the Misericrod form their own caste and wear distinctive and rather sinister masks to mark them out from the rest of the crew...'

 

I like the idea of rituals and traditions that the Castigators themselves just find bizarre. They have little time or patience for them, so leave the serfs largely to themselves. That said, the Master of the Household would be responsible to ensure that there is no recidivism going on, and that there are no latent psykers within the serf population.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think the Serfs having there own culture, it would shuffle them more toward helots and take them away from being civilians who work for the chapter in exchange for the privilege of continuing living. I think this would add depth to the Chapter as a whole, because it shows that to make the Castigators be successful they require normal people. Just my opinion though.

[Zed Alpha]

You could put things past M41. They'd be hypothetical, but valid for you. Just don't go too far, say, not past the first century or two.

[Commissar Molotov]

You could put things past M41. They'd be hypothetical, but valid for you. Just don't go too far, say, not past the first century or two.

 

...?

 

Which post are you responding to?

[brother varen]

How do the Castigators treat or look at their serfs? I believe you said at one time that the Castigators have nothing to due with their homeworld except to police it for pyskers and mutants. Do the castigators interact with the serfs? What about the different factions with the chapter (zealots and moderates), do they treat serfs differently?

 

I think you also stated that the chapter serfs were trained to Imperial guard standards to better help repel boarding actions. So, this would indecate that the marines have some dealings with serfs.

 

Now, who are the serfs? Are they inducted (shanghied) by the chapter or are they failed aspiriants? Is there a destinction between the two factions of serfs? Are only the failed aspiriants the only ones allowed to hold positions of responsiblity within the chapter? Maybe a failed aspiriant would hold the position of Lord of the household? Now aspiriants who fail the implantation of the glands needed to change them to space marines, they would fail at different stages of implantation. So, would this alao cause a caste system within the serfs?

 

In my opinion, I belive that the position of "Lord of the Household" would be a failed aspiriant who failed at the last stages of implantation. This way, he would travel between the worlds of both space marine and chapter serf. Would make logical sense and an interesting character. :)

 

now if you use this idea, think of the culture, beiliefs, and traditions that would differ within the serf population. :no:

 

This is of course, if you wish to use a caste system for the chapter serfs. I kind of like this idea, but it is your chapter and your choice.

[Barret]

For the Master's Secretarius, I was reading Charles Stross' Atrocity Archives, and one of the characters claimed that the root of "secretary" was "secret". As in a keeper or guardian of secrets.

 

Wikipedia gives the etymology of "secretary" as:

 

The term is derived from the Latin word secernere, "to distinguish" or "to set apart," the passive participle (secretum) meaning "having been set apart," with the eventual connotation of something private or confidential. A secretarius was a person, therefore, overseeing business confidentially, usually for a powerful individual (a king, pope, etc).

 

Perhaps that could be of some help?

 

 

 

As for the Serfs, the model I've been working on for the T-Swords is that they're a distinct, self-sustaining population that are the descendants of the original Serfs from the Founding. They have little to no contact with the natives of the Chapter's homeworld, and are not regarded as a viable source of recruits.

 

That said, the serfs could be taken from a homeworld or recruiting world (failed aspirants) to supplement their population. Perhaps children who are almost but not quite good enough to become aspirants could be inducted. Or maybe they're a lot of re-educated criminals, or something.

[brother varen]

Mol, have you a timeline for the Castigators? I need any info for the 2nd company that you have already made. Trying to create events/ battles for the 2nd company. When was Captain Caphius made captain of the 2nd? When was he promoted to full marine status from the scout company? How long has he been captain of the 2nd? How many other 2nd company captains were there?

What was the founding date of the Castigators?

 

Questions on modeling Castigators:

 

Would the Castigators use the Black Templar chained weapon arms?

 

What about Dark Angel robes or Black Templar tabards?

 

Would any bits from the Dark Angel or Black Templar frames stand out to you as being used by the Castigators?

[Zed Alpha]

You could put things past M41. They'd be hypothetical, but valid for you. Just don't go too far, say, not past the first century or two.

Sorry, I only check this site about once or twice a day...

[Swordlord]

The Secretarius would just like a Secretary (administrative assistant) or a Secretary of State (responsible for foreign policy).

 

The Lord of the Household on the other hand would most likely be responsible for the Chapter's Serfs and the like - much like the Master of the Household in the UK Royal Household.

 

Now the Armourer would likely be in direct charge of the Chapters Artificiers (which notably probably aren't Techmarines because they focus solely on crafting / repairing weapons and armour) and arming Servitors (see Flight of the Eisenstein for the latter).

 

Have the grace to put a "In my opinion..." at the start of your post! :D

 

Still, you raise many pertinent points and ideas.

 

Secretarius: Although we might perhaps a perjorative view of a 'Secretary', it's perhaps true that the Chapter Master might have an administrative assistant of some kind. What would their role be, though? The Chief Victualler would presumably be in charge of supplies and the like. I do think of Jurgen from the Ciaphas Cain series - how he's responsible for filtering Cain's correspondence to ensure his time is spent efficiently. Hrm.

 

Lord of the Household: Very good idea. A liason between the serfs and the Space Marines would work. I'd have to look at the Royal Family's Master of the Household to find some inspiration. Still, that's good. I was thinking about the Serfs, actually, that there would be a number of different castes, almost - with a fierce rivalry between them, and ancient and bewildering traditions that might bemuse the Marines. Having a Marine that can liase with them is good - after all, psykers would have to be rooted out of the serf populations, too. (I imagine that there would be both male and female serfs, a breeding population. They would live on the Sanctuary, but the Space Marines wouldn't recruit from them. Depending on peoples' opinions, I might make it so that the Castigators take exceptional recruits from the Serfs, it would be a great honour, and they might be seen differently among the Chapter. That could be interesting.)

 

Armourer: Whilst I was aware that the artificers wouldn't be Techmarines, it's interesting to suggest that it would be a Marine in charge of the Artificers. I'd have thought he would be a Techmarine working for the Master of the Forge, though. My other thought was that he was a Marine responsible for the Chapter Master's weaponry and wargear - responsible for armouring the Master. I was unsure, though.

 

Perhaps you could use the title Steward, as their specialty is handling the day-to-day logistics of a household.

[brother varen]

In the Castigators long history, have they developed any specialities? For example, armoured assualt, seige, ect.

 

On the 2nd company's strike cruiser, do the non-marine crew rotate out or do they serve till death? I can't imagine Caphius working with a rotating ship crew. :D

 

The armour assortment for the 2nd company should be mk 4, mk 6, mk 7, and some mk 8? Do the Castigators use any older marks of vehicles? What is the oldest mark of vehicle that the Castigators have? Any specialized vehicles? What about marks of dreadnoughts?

[Ferrus Manus]

What was the founding date of the Castigators?

We're unsure simply because we have no canon date for the 14th Founding.

In the Castigators long history, have they developed any specialities? For example, armoured assualt, seige, ect.

They're Codex Astartes so they would be proficient in all types of warfare not favouring one over another. But what they do specialize in is no running away :tu:

The armour assortment for the 2nd company should be mk 4, mk 6, mk 7, and some mk 8? Do the Castigators use any older marks of vehicles? What is the oldest mark of vehicle that the Castigators have? Any specialized vehicles? What about marks of dreadnoughts?

I'd expect that it would be the same with the armour, mostly newer marks with the ocassional older mark, however it would be slightly less os with the vehicles I'd imagine.

 

Hope that helps. I'll leave the rest to Mol.

[brother varen]

Mol, are you sure that the captain model from the Black Reach box set is the best choice for Captain Caphius? It looks okay, but doesn't stand out to much like your Captain Anteas model. I'm trying to look at different models to find the right parts. Just trying to make it stand out.

 

How is the Castigator website going? Trying to get a timeline going for the 2nd company. That is when i get a chance. Is the 5th company the only ones to have contact with the Tau empire? Are they the only ones to travel outside Segmentum Tempestus? That is where their world is located, right? Or, are they located in the ultima Segmentum? With everything going on around me, it is hard to focus.

 

Thanks, Ferrus. it does help.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Very nice IA, Commissar Molotov! I can't be reading twenty-some pages of stuff, but I can see you're putting a lot more work into it than your IA. This one really stands out, in my opinion.

 

I like the connection between the 13th Founding and the purity-obsessed feel of your description of the 14th Founding.

 

I love your illustrations. Someday... someday my IA will be graced with something so lovely.

 

The continued theme of obsession with purity really brings the IA together as well. Everything from their Founding to the home planet they chose and its conflicts to the broader scheme where they have conflicts and praises from the Imperium is excellent.

 

I also have to comment that I really like the struggle they have with their unyielding faith in the Emperor and the potential heresy they see in the Mechanicus' beliefs and, by association, their own brothers via Techmarines.

 

I was wondering if the moon on which Sanctuary is situated had a name? Does it have any significance with the populace, either dark- or light side? Is anything else known about the light-siders? Hate to pry, but as my Chapter has no homeworld (anymore), I'm interested in how people who have Chapters with them describe them. Leads to more questions on my part.

 

You've also inspired me to change my IA a bit. Thanks for the continued inspiration. :lol: Again, awesome job!

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, a lot for me to work through!

 

How do the Castigators treat or look at their serfs? I believe you said at one time that the Castigators have nothing to due with their homeworld except to police it for pyskers and mutants. Do the castigators interact with the serfs? What about the different factions with the chapter (zealots and moderates), do they treat serfs differently?

 

I think you also stated that the chapter serfs were trained to Imperial guard standards to better help repel boarding actions. So, this would indecate that the marines have some dealings with serfs.

 

Now, who are the serfs? Are they inducted (shanghied) by the chapter or are they failed aspiriants? Is there a destinction between the two factions of serfs? Are only the failed aspiriants the only ones allowed to hold positions of responsiblity within the chapter? Maybe a failed aspiriant would hold the position of Lord of the household? Now aspiriants who fail the implantation of the glands needed to change them to space marines, they would fail at different stages of implantation. So, would this alao cause a caste system within the serfs?

 

In my opinion, I belive that the position of "Lord of the Household" would be a failed aspiriant who failed at the last stages of implantation. This way, he would travel between the worlds of both space marine and chapter serf. Would make logical sense and an interesting character. ;)

 

now if you use this idea, think of the culture, beiliefs, and traditions that would differ within the serf population. ;)

 

This is of course, if you wish to use a caste system for the chapter serfs. I kind of like this idea, but it is your chapter and your choice.

 

-> To a degree, I think the Castigators take their serfs for granted. I would think that the majority of Space Marines do, too. There may be times where the Space Marines and their serfs get closer (Garro and his Housecarl, for example.) such as when a particularly skilled artificer might be tasked with modifying a Marine's armour. I don't think that the Castigators would actively mistreat their serfs, though. For the most part, however, I would think that the two groups don't interact that much. As to the different factions, I don't want to generalise.

 

-> I do think that those Serfs that would be in combat (naval crews, etc.) would be trained to be roughly equivalent with better Guard regiments. The Serfs would be inducted into the Chapter Cult (or something that closely parallels it) and would have high-quality equipment and the backing of their Masters. They'd be a fearsome prospect in a boarding action, even if they're not the equal of the Space Marines.

 

-> Much like Barret mentions earlier, my idea is that the Serfs are a self-sustaining population in the Sanctuary. I don't think a Chapter like the Castigators can allow failed aspirants to stick around. Genetic purity, after all - I need to emphasise the darker sides of the Castigators somewhere. I think such aspirants would be servitorised. I know it disregards a bunch of your ideas regarding the Lord of the Household and a caste system as a result of physical development, but I have reasons for it. My plan was that there would be a caste system, but one built around profession.

 

For example, you would have the artificers, responsible for maintaining and embellishing weaponry and equipment. The fleet, subdivided further (gunners, etc.) You'd have Tech-Adepts inititated into the lower levels of the Machine Cult. The scribes that aid the Librarians, those within the Chapels that care for relics, maintain the vaults of the dead and the chapels themselves; the assistants within the Apothecarion. You might have the Strategicians/Lex-mechanics and the like that would calculate strategies in order to aid officers. The Arbitrators/Proctors that would police the serf population for trouble, sedition, witchery and rebellion. I imagine the Master of the Household would be responsible for maintaining order, settling disputes and approving marriages, too. It's a seperate society that bears the weight of the Chapter upon its back.

 

Life for the Chapter Serfs would be hard, demanding, perhaps comparable to that of a hive manufactorum worker. Unlike ah iver city, though, the Serf Halls are not host to violent gangers squabbling over territory. The Serfs are loyal and disciplined, devoting their life-work to their genetically-enhanced overlords. I think they would prize duty, honour and obligation. In the main, Serfs would undertake skilled work - tasks like sweeping floors could easily be accomplished by servitors!

 

I think the life of a Serf is different to that of an Imperial citizen because, like the Castigators, they wouldn't be entered into the Imperial cult. They'd be entered into the Chapter Cult (or a pseudo-Chapter Cult) and many of them would be educated (as educated as their job required them to be.) They would have lives, they would have a lot of comfort and security, and the best home defence money can buy. ;)

 

FAs for the Serfs, the model I've been working on for the T-Swords is that they're a distinct, self-sustaining population that are the descendants of the original Serfs from the Founding. They have little to no contact with the natives of the Chapter's homeworld, and are not regarded as a viable source of recruits.

 

That said, the serfs could be taken from a homeworld or recruiting world (failed aspirants) to supplement their population. Perhaps children who are almost but not quite good enough to become aspirants could be inducted. Or maybe they're a lot of re-educated criminals, or something.

 

I have very similar ideas. The Castigators that were founded under Baraquiel needed some form of Serf force, so when they arrived at Losanco they would've stuck around. My Serfs are sulf-sustaining, too. As to not being a viable source of recruits... part of me wants to say that they might be. Perhaps there may occasionally be some form of tournament where the children of Serfs could, if they wished, attempt to join. They were be an incredibly small majority, though, but it might be cool backstory for the occasional Marine within the Chapter to be 'serf-born'.

 

The other thing I was thinking is that there might be famous Serf families, families where particularly reknowned artificers come from or the like. Perhaps you could have several generations of the same family serving as aides for a particular Commander or the like. Just something to think about.

 

 

Mol, have you a timeline for the Castigators? I need any info for the 2nd company that you have already made. Trying to create events/ battles for the 2nd company. When was Captain Caphius made captain of the 2nd? When was he promoted to full marine status from the scout company? How long has he been captain of the 2nd? How many other 2nd company captains were there?

What was the founding date of the Castigators?

 

Questions on modeling Castigators:

 

Would the Castigators use the Black Templar chained weapon arms?

 

What about Dark Angel robes or Black Templar tabards?

 

Would any bits from the Dark Angel or Black Templar frames stand out to you as being used by the Castigators?

 

There are a number of timelines for the Castigators, but none that are complete. What do you need, specifically? I can attempt to help you out. Plus, if you posted some of your ideas, we can all discuss them - that's what we did for other Companies like the third.

 

Caphius is the oldest Captain in the Chapter, and I imagine him to be somewhere between 400 and 500. He would, accordingly, have been Captain of the Second for something between 200-350 years, something like that. As to how many other Second Company Captains there've been... you have to remember I'm hampered because I don't know when the Castigators were founded. If you were to assume that an average Captain serves for something like 100 years, then there could be anything up to 80 previous Captains. The only one that matters, of course, is Lycidius, who served as Second Company Captain during M37.

 

Some of the zealots might use the chained weapon arms. The ones that aren't distinctively Templar, anyway. They do it for a different reason, though - it's not so they can't lose their weapon, but rather to symbolise how the Astartes are bound to their duty. I've never really seen the Castigators wearing Tabards, though. The only Castigators to wear robes are the Techmarines - some of them wear robes of black to cover their bionics.

 

In the Castigators long history, have they developed any specialities? For example, armoured assualt, seige, ect.

 

On the 2nd company's strike cruiser, do the non-marine crew rotate out or do they serve till death? I can't imagine Caphius working with a rotating ship crew. :yuck:

 

The armour assortment for the 2nd company should be mk 4, mk 6, mk 7, and some mk 8? Do the Castigators use any older marks of vehicles? What is the oldest mark of vehicle that the Castigators have? Any specialized vehicles? What about marks of dreadnoughts?

 

The Castigators adhere to the Codex Astartes broadly, with only slight deviations. Their 'specialities' are mental for the most part. They're ferociously devoted, only retreating in the most dire of situations. Captain Caphius may favour a more direct form of action, and this may lead to flamers having great use, but they operate within the bounds of the Codex.

 

I don't imagine that the crew of the Inviolate would rotate, no. In part because of the Caste culture. I imagine the ship crews would be quite competitive.

 

They're Codex Astartes so they would be proficient in all types of warfare not favouring one over another. But what they do specialize in is no running away ;)

 

Barret pointed this quote out to me on MSN - it amused him a great deal. :)

 

 

Mol, are you sure that the captain model from the Black Reach box set is the best choice for Captain Caphius? It looks okay, but doesn't stand out to much like your Captain Anteas model. I'm trying to look at different models to find the right parts. Just trying to make it stand out.

 

How is the Castigator website going? Trying to get a timeline going for the 2nd company. That is when i get a chance. Is the 5th company the only ones to have contact with the Tau empire? Are they the only ones to travel outside Segmentum Tempestus? That is where their world is located, right? Or, are they located in the ultima Segmentum? With everything going on around me, it is hard to focus.

 

Thanks, Ferrus. it does help.

 

If you want to use another model, feel free! I only suggested the Black Reach Captain because he seems markedly similar to Caphius. If you're not happy with him, you don't have to feel bound to that. In some ways it's not suitable - not least because he's going to be very common these days.

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/Castigators/Caphius.jpg

 

I think as long as you're broadly consistent with the artwork, you're allowed to do what you want. I did have some thoughts with the Pedro Kantor rules - rename 'Orbital Bombardment' to 'Wrath of the Inviolate' and it might fit Caphius more, calling down cleansing orbital fire from the Second Company's Strike Cruiser. (EDIT: And his Iron Halo could easily represent the Hero's Mantle.)

 

I always thought this picture of Invictus fit well with Caphius, too:

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/Castigators/Caphius1.jpg

 

The 4th Company is the primary Company to've fought the Tau - any contact the other Battle Companies may have had would be very limited. I'd like to say that the Fifth have never fought the Tau, but I have a Tau player in my circle. That's because I try not to jump on the bandwagon, and I don't think Space Marine Chapters are going to lurch across the galaxy. Equally, the Castigators have had no recorded contacts with the Necrons (as yet). The Howling Stars are in the Ultima Segmentum, and whilst the Castigators wouldn't confine their operations to the Howling Stars, most of their campaigns would be relatively close to them.

 

Very nice IA, Commissar Molotov! I can't be reading twenty-some pages of stuff, but I can see you're putting a lot more work into it than your IA. This one really stands out, in my opinion.

 

I like the connection between the 13th Founding and the purity-obsessed feel of your description of the 14th Founding.

 

I love your illustrations. Someday... someday my IA will be graced with something so lovely.

 

The continued theme of obsession with purity really brings the IA together as well. Everything from their Founding to the home planet they chose and its conflicts to the broader scheme where they have conflicts and praises from the Imperium is excellent.

 

I also have to comment that I really like the struggle they have with their unyielding faith in the Emperor and the potential heresy they see in the Mechanicus' beliefs and, by association, their own brothers via Techmarines.

 

I was wondering if the moon on which Sanctuary is situated had a name? Does it have any significance with the populace, either dark- or light side? Is anything else known about the light-siders? Hate to pry, but as my Chapter has no homeworld (anymore), I'm interested in how people who have Chapters with them describe them. Leads to more questions on my part.

 

You've also inspired me to change my IA a bit. Thanks for the continued inspiration. :P Again, awesome job!

 

Thanks for your feedback! I certainly appreciate it. I know this thread can be intimidating to enter, with us Castigator fanboys arguing over the minutiae of things that perplex and bemuse outsiders, but still. :) Hopefully you'll stick around! Also, there's no 'prying'. Your questions help me because by having to defend and expound upon my ideas, they get tested. The less-resilient ideas eventually fall by the wayside and are replaced by stronger ones. So it's all good!

 

I've never thought to give the moon a name. I imagine 'Sanctuary' is a term originally derived from those Losancans inducted into the Chapter. I don't think Baraquiel would've called it 'Sanctuary' - for him the only true Sanctuary was faith in the Emperor! So yes, I think there would be some significance with the dark-siders, because if nothing else, it's a primary source of illumination, however dim.

 

There will eventually be further work done on the light-siders, which'll go on to detail the planet more. At the moment, they're gribbly, shambling mutants, and that;s all that matters! I think homeworlds open up a lot of problems for a DIY Chapter, as they add a lot of 'baggage'. They should be done well or not at all - and I think personally that too many DIYs utilise their homeworlds as a throwaway section, without giving sufficient importance to them. In the Castigators, however, it serves to mirror the themes inherent within the Chapter, so it works for me.

[The_Chaplain]

bah, one day I will have an IA this good >.<

 

glad to see this thread is still alive and kicking mol

[Barret]

All this talk of serfs has gotten me thinking. The notion of nine thousand seems really quite low to me. These populations have millennia to grow, and a lot of space to do it. Between crewing the Chapter fleet, the basic support staff for a Fortress-Monastery (each of which might be the size of a hive city), providing specialized support for the Chapter (artificers, etc), that population could be in the tens of thousands on its own. Beyond that, there would be families, the support for those who serve the Chapter directly (farmers or other food producers, miners and forgeworkers), as well as any armed forces the serfs provide... And on top of that there would be an entire bureaucracy that governs the population. Administrative staff, police forces, any kind of self-government they have (since I really doubt that Marines would be directly involved in that). Really, I think that serf populations would be more like self-sustaining nations that could reach populations of hundreds of thousands assuming they have the space and supplies to support it.

 

Between providing armed forces for the fleet and garrisoning any permanent installations a Chapter might control, the serf militia alone could be size of one or more Imperial Guard regiments, and given that they'd be receiving training and equipment from Astartes, they'd like be comparable to Guard elite forces.

 

There's a whole world of logistics behind a Chapter that hasn't really gotten much thought put into it, in my opinion. Chapters produce their own vehicles. That requires factories. Who is going to work in those factories? Serfs. Factories require raw materials, and unless a Chapter can import them all, which seems unlikely given that the Imperium is already stretched, those materials would have to be mined, processed, smelted, etc. Serfs would have to do all of that, as most Chapter homeworlds have populations that haven't even mastered gunpowder, let alone the technology required to supply a futuristic military industrial complex. Marines and serfs both need to eat. Food must be grown and processed, stored, prepared, served. Again, I don't think imports could explain all or even a large part of that as a Chapter needs to be as independent as possible, especially given how isolated they are in many cases. Schools, both for children and to develop specialized skills would be needed. It's a vast workforce, an entire society, that would be needed to support a Chapter, far more than just crewing space ships and assembling the odd bolter.

 

We all know the propensity for human mutation in the 41st millennium. I would think a serf population would have to be self-regulating, with its own police forces, along with the facilities and training to deal with nascent psykers, mutants, etc.

 

 

Anyways, I hope that's some food for thought. I'm certainly doing a lot of thinking about the Thousand Swords' serf population and how they function alongside the Chapter.

[Commissar Molotov]

bah, one day I will have an IA this good >.<

 

glad to see this thread is still alive and kicking mol

 

Will it ever die? :)

 

 

All this talk of serfs has gotten me thinking. The notion of nine thousand seems really quite low to me. These populations have millennia to grow, and a lot of space to do it. Between crewing the Chapter fleet, the basic support staff for a Fortress-Monastery (each of which might be the size of a hive city), providing specialized support for the Chapter (artificers, etc), that population could be in the tens of thousands on its own. Beyond that, there would be families, the support for those who serve the Chapter directly (farmers or other food producers, miners and forgeworkers), as well as any armed forces the serfs provide... And on top of that there would be an entire bureaucracy that governs the population. Administrative staff, police forces, any kind of self-government they have (since I really doubt that Marines would be directly involved in that). Really, I think that serf populations would be more like self-sustaining nations that could reach populations of hundreds of thousands assuming they have the space and supplies to support it.

 

I was wrong when talking to you on MSN; this is the exact quote:

 

'At full occupation, the monastery was home to the thousand battle-brothers of the chapter and their officers, with a supporting staff of servitors, scribes, technomats and functionaries that numbered seven and a half thousand souls.'

 

So you could end up arguing the number down further, as that number includes servitors and technomats into the 7,500 figure. I don't think that most Chapters would end up with a serf population numbering in "the hundreds of thousands".

 

(Odd thought - can you imagine what would happen if a Chapter's serfs unionised?)

[Cpt_Tiberius]

(Odd thought - can you imagine what would happen if a Chapter's serfs unionised?)

 

...Exterminatus? ;)

[Commissar Molotov]

Yeah, except when the Captain of the battle-barge yells "fire!" he suddenly realises that there's nobody to load his bombardment cannon... ;)

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Thanks for your feedback! I certainly appreciate it. I know this thread can be intimidating to enter, with us Castigator fanboys arguing over the minutiae of things that perplex and bemuse outsiders, but still. ;) Hopefully you'll stick around! Also, there's no 'prying'. Your questions help me because by having to defend and expound upon my ideas, they get tested. The less-resilient ideas eventually fall by the wayside and are replaced by stronger ones. So it's all good!

 

I see we share developmental philosophies. Through critique, the work grows strong.

 

And don't worry, I'm a little guilty of fussing over minutiae of my own Chapter, so I understand the temptation.

 

I've never thought to give the moon a name. I imagine 'Sanctuary' is a term originally derived from those Losancans inducted into the Chapter. I don't think Baraquiel would've called it 'Sanctuary' - for him the only true Sanctuary was faith in the Emperor! So yes, I think there would be some significance with the dark-siders, because if nothing else, it's a primary source of illumination, however dim.

 

And, given their propensity to see light as a corrupter, is there some sort of ideological conflict in them when it comes to the moon? And the fact that their angels reside there?

 

Do they have a name for the sun as well?

 

There will eventually be further work done on the light-siders, which'll go on to detail the planet more. At the moment, they're gribbly, shambling mutants, and that;s all that matters! I think homeworlds open up a lot of problems for a DIY Chapter, as they add a lot of 'baggage'. They should be done well or not at all - and I think personally that too many DIYs utilise their homeworlds as a throwaway section, without giving sufficient importance to them. In the Castigators, however, it serves to mirror the themes inherent within the Chapter, so it works for me.

 

Awesome, I'd love to hear more about them.

 

I also found the 'Homeworld' section to be pivotal... in a different fashion. I agree that it is, however you use it, an important element; a lot of things project from it, particularly beliefs and combat doctrine.

 

I ventured a third of the way through your thread but didn't make it much further. I think the potential for conflict with the Techmarines and the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the inner war that Techmarines might feel, adds depth to the Chapter and also a fair bit of flaw- which is good, as I'm sure you know. Perfection is boring.

 

The Illuminatus was a good find, thanks.

 

As with the Knights of the Raven... your Chapter and mine, even before they went renegade, would not be friends. Speaking of which... I'd be mighty pleased if you could give my IA a gander. I've changed some stuff and also polished things, but I know it will need more work. Particularly if I want it to be as awesome as yours.

 

In response to your long-ago post asking about titles... about all I've got so far is the Warden of the Lost, the Chaplain who took it upon himself to lead the burgeoning ranks of the Death Company after my Chapter fell from grace. I chose 'Warden' because it implies a duty and a burden, as taking on the mantle is a sort of penance for him... but that's getting into material I shouldn't divulge. Suffice to say someday there will be books.

 

I like the idea of your 'blunt' Librarians having null equipment. It highlights your Chapter's disdain for psykers, makes for a good contrast with other Librarium staff, and seems like the kind of thing knowledgeable members of your Chapter (Lexicanums and up, I suppose) would use, having the know-how required.

 

I'll hit the second and maybe third parts that I haven't read over the course of this week.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, apparently I've got better things to do than sleep.

 

I like how you've thought about serfs in such detail. Certainly made me think even more about them, I've been wanting to flesh them out but it's a hell of a daunting task.

 

The Truth War sounds very interesting. My eyes might have glazed over in the past dozen pages, so I apologize if I missed it, but what all happens?

 

Ah, the death of a parent Chapter. Poor Black Consuls. I think this sort of thing can make for interesting inter-Chapter relations, familial or no. It could have a lot of parallels to real life- when someone insults, hurts, or even kills someone you know or love, reactions occur. If a parent Chapter dies, yours might go pay its respects (and try to figure out what they get from the will and testament). My Chapter reacted rashly after the slaughter at Mackan- they're successors of the Blood Angels- and got mauled like a dog who's finally caught that car. What does yours do?

[Commissar Molotov]

And, given their propensity to see light as a corrupter, is there some sort of ideological conflict in them when it comes to the moon? And the fact that their angels reside there?

 

Do they have a name for the sun as well?

 

They don't see light as a corrupter. One of the things I wanted to move away from was a Mortifactor-esque tendency to describe the inhabitants of dark/dim worlds as being squinty mole-men with an aversion to light. Indeed, Captain Sirius (the third Company Captain) has a starburst as his heraldry, seeing it as a potent analogy for the death and destruction the Space Marines can bring. After all, the Losancan legends say that the Emperor will bring the light back once all the mutants are killed.

 

I haven't come up with a name for the sun, no.

 

Awesome, I'd love to hear more about them.

 

I also found the 'Homeworld' section to be pivotal... in a different fashion. I agree that it is, however you use it, an important element; a lot of things project from it, particularly beliefs and combat doctrine.

 

To me, the Belief section is the most important of any DIY, and it's one of the most neglected. It's there where you can differentiate between Chapters. I don't care if you have BP+CCW or meltaguns out of the wazoo. What matters is why your Chapter fights, y'know?

 

EDIT: Nevermind, apparently I've got better things to do than sleep.

 

I like how you've thought about serfs in such detail. Certainly made me think even more about them, I've been wanting to flesh them out but it's a hell of a daunting task.

 

The Truth War sounds very interesting. My eyes might have glazed over in the past dozen pages, so I apologize if I missed it, but what all happens?

 

Don't forget that this thread is 2+ years old, and some of the things I've forgotten. Plus, my opinions on various things have shifted. It's sometiimes good to quote those posts in order to ensure I know what you're talking about! :P But still, I'm glad that the Castigators thread's given you some material to think about.

 

The Truth War is something I've not detailed properly, partially because my original idea for what instigated it was implausible. The basic gist is that the Castigators were on the verge of being excommunicated because of [something] - only the efforts (and ultimate sacrifice) of First-Captain Lycidius to uncover the truth led to the Castigators surviving. And whilst 90% of DIYs would hate the Inquisition and never go near them again... :wub: ...I decided that the Castigators have grown close to the Inquisition again in the intervening millennia.

 

Ah, the death of a parent Chapter. Poor Black Consuls. I think this sort of thing can make for interesting inter-Chapter relations, familial or no. It could have a lot of parallels to real life- when someone insults, hurts, or even kills someone you know or love, reactions occur. If a parent Chapter dies, yours might go pay its respects (and try to figure out what they get from the will and testament). My Chapter reacted rashly after the slaughter at Mackan- they're successors of the Blood Angels- and got mauled like a dog who's finally caught that car. What does yours do?

 

Well, I like to think that the Black Consuls have been given enough wiggle room to survive. The 'current status unknown' in the new Codex provides Black Consuls players with an 'out'. Still, I think the Castigators would've made every effort to uncover the truth and honour their parent-Chapter. A very solemn and sombre time for the Chapter, though.

[The_Chaplain]

And whilst 90% of DIYs would hate the Inquisition and never go near them again... ...I decided that the Castigators have grown close to the Inquisition again in the intervening millennia.

 

well, some kids just don't learn after sticking their finger in the electrical outlet,eh mol? just kiddin' man.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

They don't see light as a corrupter. One of the things I wanted to move away from was a Mortifactor-esque tendency to describe the inhabitants of dark/dim worlds as being squinty mole-men with an aversion to light. Indeed, Captain Sirius (the third Company Captain) has a starburst as his heraldry, seeing it as a potent analogy for the death and destruction the Space Marines can bring. After all, the Losancan legends say that the Emperor will bring the light back once all the mutants are killed.

 

I haven't come up with a name for the sun, no.

 

My bad. I was a little sleep deprived. On review, I really like that idea- makes your nightsiders more distinct.

 

To me, the Belief section is the most important of any DIY, and it's one of the most neglected. It's there where you can differentiate between Chapters. I don't care if you have BP+CCW or meltaguns out of the wazoo. What matters is why your Chapter fights, y'know?

 

I wasn't saying that the Homeworld section was more important, simply that it is important and other sections, like beliefs, stem from it. But I agree.

 

Don't forget that this thread is 2+ years old, and some of the things I've forgotten. Plus, my opinions on various things have shifted. It's sometiimes good to quote those posts in order to ensure I know what you're talking about! :( But still, I'm glad that the Castigators thread's given you some material to think about.

 

I had a bunch of quotes... but then the net ate it and I couldn't be asked to go through all 28 pages again.

 

The Truth War is something I've not detailed properly, partially because my original idea for what instigated it was implausible. The basic gist is that the Castigators were on the verge of being excommunicated because of [something] - only the efforts (and ultimate sacrifice) of First-Captain Lycidius to uncover the truth led to the Castigators surviving. And whilst 90% of DIYs would hate the Inquisition and never go near them again... :D ...I decided that the Castigators have grown close to the Inquisition again in the intervening millennia.

 

Nice.

 

Well, I like to think that the Black Consuls have been given enough wiggle room to survive. The 'current status unknown' in the new Codex provides Black Consuls players with an 'out'. Still, I think the Castigators would've made every effort to uncover the truth and honour their parent-Chapter. A very solemn and sombre time for the Chapter, though.

 

True.