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Kind of what the title says, though I'm not really asking about it. Instead I've calculated when it's worth it to fish for critical hits when you've got rerolls and when not to and thought I'd share it with the class! This is specifically impactful for marines because of OoM. For this exercise I want to show when it's worth fishing for critical hits, and when it's not, in regard to Lethal Hits, Sustained Hits. To start I wanted to establish that I am referring to 'fishing' as the practice of rerolling all dice rolls that do not score critical hits, including normal hits, instead of just failures to hit. Of course this only applies where rerolls are allowed. Sustained hits Sustained hits are only mathematically worth fishing for when the sustained number is equal to or greater than your to-hit number. For example, sustained hits 2 is worth fishing if you have a 2+ to hit. If your sustained hits number is 1 less than your to-hit number there's statistically no point to rerolling as your chance of hitting, including the sustained hits, is exactly 1. For example, inceptors have SH 2, which is one less than their 3+ to hit, which means that if you roll enough dice the number of total hits will equal the number of dice rolled. In other words, fish if you feel lucky, don't if you don't. The probability is that the results will be the same. If your sustained hits number is 2 lower than your to hit roll, it's not worth it. For example, a Heavy Bolter (with SH1) firing at BS 3+ is not worth fishing for. Lethal hits Lethal hits are a bit trickier as you need to factor in both the to-hit roll and the to-wound roll. If the chance of landing a successful wound from an attack with lethal hits (without rerolls) is greater than the chance of landing a successful wound per regular hit, then fishing is worth it. This is less often than you'd think. For each combination of to-hits and to-wounds, see the tables below. Combined lethal and sustained hits. These are trickier still... and I really don't feel like going into detail about how I calculated the results! You may ask about the effect of twin-linking... im not going to do the math for these, but I think that would swing the numbers slightly in favor of not fishing. Anyone who wants to prove or disprove that can knock themselves out! Moving on, let's see what happens when you throw 5+ crits in the mix. I'm not going to calculate sustained or LH individually as I don't think that's going to happen often enough to be worth my time. We want to know about lieutenants/biologis' with fire discipline! I thought about doing dev wounds, but the occasions where you have rerolls to wound on a dev wound weapon are few and far between. That said, it's most useful on targets that are wounded easily but would be getting a good save against a normal wound. Shooting at Saint Celestine with a gladiator reaper's main cannon would be a good example. Anyway, I hope this has been useful.

Greetings Brothers of Dorn, So I have been pulled astray many a time from my beloved Crimson Fists. Dark Angels, Blood Angels even filthy Tau have all side tracked me. But I've finally done it and got the Codex coming and started to put together some of my guys. So to tactics and questions! I plan on a large Drop Pod army because I love Drop Pods. Even back in 5th edition when I would get owned Drop pods were borrowed and tons of fun and I love them always have always will. I figure they probably go fairly well with Crimson Fists now seeing as they are more guerilla strike force anyway (depending on your opinion after Rynn's World.) So for a 2000 pts List I came up with a fairly nice list I have that I like however having not played a game of 7th and only having gotten about 8 games of 6th in I need some help before I commit totally to this. My question is thus: I plan on a Captain with Relic Blade Artificer Armor and Stormshield. Added to this would be a Mastery Level 2 Libby with Force Staff. I was thinking of adding two Techmarines with Harnesses to help add to the shooting as well as PF attacks at Str 8. I was going to load all four of these individuals up into a Pod with a 5 Man Command Squad with 4 Plasma Guns and Apoth. I understand the Command Squad is counter to a Close Combat HQ but my thoughts were dropping this unit in as a major distraction/must deal with unit. Captain and Techmarines to Tank shots. Squad to rapid fire stuff to death until my opponent charges or I get a better chance to charge them. While I understand this unit is an "all eggs in one basket" I think it does well for a Counter punch while giving me the Plasma I need for my army. I planned on a barebones Sternguard Squad with Ironclad podded escort. 20 scouts (10 Snipers & 2 Land Speeder storms) And lastly 2 Tac Squads with a Plasma gun and Heavy Bolter. I understand Pedro is the man for CF and I do intend to use him but I want to try lists without him (I know gasp). Anyway my main question is about the Captain and Libby and Techmarines all added to a Command Squad. I will happily take any comments or suggestions about the rest of the list as well. I know there is practically no Anti Air at the moment and I plan to get two Storm Talons with Skyhammers to handle this for future lists. Thanks, DoC

Hey everyone! So I'm working on building 4th company of the Dark Angels. I've got all six of the tactical squads on the way and I'm trying to decide on a few things. First I am running all plasma. Plasma Gun/Cannon on my normal tacs. But I need to figure out if I want to go with Combi-Plasma or Plasma Pistol & Thunder Hammer/Power Weapon. Any thoughts on the selection between those two options? Second Should I combat squad the tactical squads so I can keep the heavy weapons a little more stationary and in firing lanes?

Tactica: World EatersI have yet to see anything regarding tactics for the Eaters of Worlds in the Horus Heresy. Just about every other legion has their own thread, but not us. I believe it is time to change that. Unfortunately, I'm an aspirant to the world of 30k, and due to unforeseen warp storms my copy of the rule books wont be here for quite some time (read UPS doesn't deliver to FPO/APO addresses). What is a fledgling god of the arena to do? I can write fluff till the cows come home, and assemble models till my fingers bleed (I'm sure a certain god would just love that), but I have no direction, no insight into what works best for the bloody VIIth. I'm calling on all the brothers of the World Eaters Legion. This is your chance to create a comprehensive depository on how to best rampage your way through the galaxy. For when the day comes that you must fall in the heat of battle, lying dead atop a mountain of the enemy, it does the rest of us no good if you take all your knowledge and leadership skills with you. ...And go!

There are varying degrees of experience in the Horus Heresy community but most of all we want to recruit others, so I'm going to start a series of discussions and encourage others to do so that focus on the more mundane questions to the veterans amongst you. The intent behind this is to build a foundation of knowledge for people to draw from and attract others to a friendly and informative guide from fellows from within the community. Starting with the pride of a non-Primarch Legion force and the character and beatstick, let's talk about the Praetor. Questions we can answer - what weapons to give a Praetor, what armour (i.e. what type) and who to run him with? How does this differ from Legion to Legion, or army build to army build, Rites of War included? Please share your thoughts, including your experiences or just your themed preferences if you like. There's room for all sorts here!

I hope it is fine to open this thread; I figured I'd take the initiative since none of the mods have made one. If not, feel free to delete it. So yeah, the Beta Garmon book is slowly arriving in people's mailboxes and I figured we might as well discuss future projects and ideas. What Oaths are people looking at in terms of options? I definitely want to build a force of the Fangs of the Emperor and I'm thinking about going for either Panoply of Old (World Eaters) + The Broken Helix (Aberrants) to represent the rapidly induced and broken creatures Harr would funnel into the siege, or go for either of the two Oaths but with Only in Death does Duty end (feels rather fluffy). Still a bit a bit mad that we cannot take Rites of War; feels like a bit of a missed opportunity. What're people planning on doing? Any fun interactions you noticed?

What would you say is the best loadout and role for two squads of Sons of Horus Cataphractii Terminators? One squad will be with Maloghurst in a Landraider and the other will be with a Master of Signals in a Landraider..

Hey all. I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread discussing the lists and tactics people are using in SW:A with their Guard. Feel free to post up any army lists you're working on and discuss any tactics that have or haven't been working for you. To be honest, any Imperial Guard SW:A chat is welcome here. At the minute, I'm working on converting up a Veteran Kill Team based on one of the Black Library Novels. You can check out their progress in my thread. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321424-stuff-thangs/ Here is my provisional starting list. 1. Veteran Sergeant with lasgun, camo gear 150 2. Veteran with lasgun, camo gear 90 3. Veteran with lasgun, camo gear 90 4. Veteran with lasgun, camo gear 90 5. Veteran with shotgun, lasgun, camo gear 110 6. Special Weapons Operative with plasma gun, camo gear 155 7. Special Weapons Operative with sniper rifle, telescopic sight, toxic rounds, camo gear 155 8. Special Weapons Operative with grenade launcher (frag), camo gear 160 1000/1000 The plan with this list is to buy two recruits without any other gear after my first game, to bring me up to maximum team size. They'll try not to die in the second game (as I don't believe you can give traded gear to a recruit before their first game). I will then give one the shotgunner's spare lasgun and use my 100 points to get a lasgun and camo gear for the new recruits, and a smattering of new gear for the vets. Sound like a decent plan? In my opinion, it looks like lasguns are a better plan than shotguns, but I have the model and it's more of a rule of cool thing. That said, if anyone has had success using shotguns, let us know. I don't know if the special weapons I've chosen are the most optimal, but I thought it would be more interesting to try different weapons than to spam the "best" gun. One option for my list is to drop the spare lasgun and give the sgt. a bolter and grab a clip harness for the sniper? Do people think this is a better option? Dallo

I decided my lists needed more close combat power so I've added Vanguard Veterans to it. My point in creating this thread is to discuss uses and load outs and my peers experiences. I'm thinking Jump Packs are mandatory. The speed is crucial and being able to drop in along with another unit (like Terminators) adds saturation. What sort of wargear do people consider decent? I wanted 3 power axes, Sergeant with twin lightning claws and 3 with Storm Shields and chainswords. The last 3 members I'd get double chainswords for extra oomph. However, the unit isn't overly powerful in assault, particulary against tough targets. Twin lightning claws instead of power axes gives an extra 3 attacks to the unit and rerolling to wound is better than S5 in many cases. Problem is the cost. It mounts up. What do folk consider here? What do you use your Vanguard for? What do you arm them with?

An interesting discussion... How do we get the best out of Stratagems when using the Ultramarines? Mentioned in another thread, should we burn through our Stratagems quickly whilst we have the units still alive or save them for later on to for something decisive when both sides have lost a lot of models? I'm thinking it's a matter of using the Stratagems as soon as possible, providing the benefit of doing so is measurably worthwhile. What does this mean? Well, be bold. If you want your Tactical squad jumping out of a Rhino with plasma and Grav Cannon to attack a powerful target then do it while you can soon as you can! Wait too long and the opponent might stop you or blunt the attack. Conversely, save the Command Point if your Sternguard are shooting at stragglers of a unit instead of using Masterful Marksmanship. That's an obvious waste but there will be times when you have similar options. Ask yourself "would I benefit from this Stratagem above and beyond the alternative of not using it?" I want a minimum of 7 Command Points in a 2000pts game, 6 in a 1500pts game. With 7 Command Points, I'll spend them a couple a turn until I have only a couple left then evaluate what I absolutely need to keep the CPs for. I'm not big on the 3 CP Stratagems personally. They are mostly over costed but one exception could be a counter charge with a Terminator squad against something beastly and using Honour the Chapter. Imagine charging into Mortarion with a Terminator squad and Dreadnought. He is unlikely to kill both and if he goes for the Dreadnought then you could hit him with Honour the Chapter. Potentially game winning. Death to the Traitors! looks interesting in a similar manner. I build my list now to use the Stratagems as best I can. It's our strength thanks to Scions of Guilliman, our Warlord Trait and every unit being able to hurt every unit. I make sure I have at least 1 Heavy Bolter so I can use Hellfire Shells. I try to use Sternguard so I can use Masterful Marksmanship. I have strong Tactical squads so I can benefit from Scions of Guilliman. I have Terminators for assault so I can use Death to the Traitors! and Honour the Chapter. Lastly, we have the best Warlord Trait for an army built for Stratagems. Refunds are amazing and will frustrate your opponent. Take Adept of the Codex EVERY TIME people! I'm interested in hearing other peoples musings on the subject. :)

I've been thinking that defeating armies with Mortarion in them will require some quite specific methods, to the extent I considered Frater would want to access that information directly. In this topic we will discuss 2 aspects to the same problem in an aid to winning a game against a Death Guard army - killing Mortarion and beating an army with him in it. I consider killing Mortarion to be quite difficult to do. He's got a monstrous amount of wounds and a nearby sorceror can heal him D3 wounds a turn I believe. Added to Disgustingly Resilient and we have a character that will likely last to the end of the game. So what ideas to players have to kill Mortarion? I'm considering people need help when not using Guilliman or an Imperial Knight. Bracketing him with a Devastator squad for a few turns can drag down his wounds regardless of how tough he is, but it might require some guts to finish him off. He's coming for you! He won't stand there and let you shoot him! Maybe a Terminator squad counter attack would help? Whacking him with power fists is going to hurt but can they survive back? I'm thinking it's Cataphractii and Assault Terminators only who can counter charge him to hold him up. On that note, holding him up whilst we punish his army is the other side of that coin. He costs a lot of points so if he is fighting 5-10 Terminators all game you're still up!

Hi All, Been creeping the forum for a while, but this is my first post (once I have a couple more painted Templars I'll make a post for my crusade). Anyway, I recently went to Warhammer World in Nottingham and purchased the exclusive Primaris Rhino/Land Raider Excelsior box and am wondering if you guys have any good ideas of how to fit them into a list. I can see the LRE working well as an assault vehicle with TH/SS termies since it give re-rolls to 1's, but only having 10 transport capacity makes it hard to fit in the characters that I feel are needed for CC support. I guess keeping it in the backfield with some extra long range support and a Castellan could work too. I'm very interested to hear other ideas

The generic 8th edition thread is a monster now so in the name of logic and organisation, I'm starting a thread to isolate discussion focused on particular aspects of gaming. This one I would like to kick off with a focus on the characters, minus Guilliman, that Ultramarines can make use of. Guilliman is so important he's likely best off in his own topic ;) though of course there will be some cross over here where relevant. Now, one of the things I like about our characters is there is literally an option for each of us and our playstyles. You want a cheap HQ to save points for elsewhere? Take Telion or Chronus. You want a tank heavy army? Chronus can make a Land Raider the equivalent of a Knight Titan! Then we have the leaders of the Chapter. As befitting of our characters, they enhance the models around them as well as kick Xenos and Heretic tail across the galaxy. I'm loving Calgar. His human side really has shone through in Dark Imperium, whilst his Terminator Armour allows him to literally go toe to toe with almost any model in the game (fittingly Guilliman owns him with the Emperor's sword). Half wounds means there isn't a weapon in the game that can do more than 3 wounds to him in a single turn. That means it is impossible for 2 lascannons to kill him! Lastly, I love his Terminator armour because I'm moving to a position where my main attack force are Teleporting Cataphractii Terminators. He can join them to provide amazing killing power and a 7 wound model right in amongst the enemy where the Gauntlets of Ultramar are squishing fools. Anyone else have anything they'd like to share?

So I was thinking of doing a wonky, multi purpose assault squad in a Corvus.... but then I started thinking about the Frag Cannon and Rhino rushes since i'm not too keen on Drop Pods. Then it hit me that multi Frag teams in Rhino's could be a very strong unit if used correctly. So they are assault weapons... that Auto hid 2D6 times. T1, Rhino moves, and advances. T2, Unit disembarks (beginning of turn now) within 3" and moves/advances and then ignites everything it can. Units assaulting are taking 3-4 Frag Cannons x 2D6 auto hitting. Units get too close? Move away, "advance" away, each frag cannon can still hit 2D6. This is the way I'm reading it. And it seems like a potentially strong tactic just simply because the Frag is S6, and that's going to do work against a vast majority of stuff, and anything it can't reliably hurt you'd just switch modes. I'm just thinking of some of the nasty assault armies I'm seeing and in the last edition you didn't see them as much but when you did they were extremely difficult to deal with, but now the Frag overwatch, and ability to allow 'advancing' and Fragging seems potent. What do you guys think? Is this valid or am I missreading something?

Newer AM player here. Got in very late in 7th, but really didn't play too much. Like many, I was aiming to run a mech guard list with veterans as the backbone. With their movement to Elites and the removal of doctrines, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to run my lads. We have the traditional options: Meltacide in Valkyrie or Chimera Demo Vets in Valkyrie Plasma Vets with Carapace in Chimera Sniper vets with an Auto cannon and camocloaks (for objective holding) Are any of these builds still viable? I'm sensing that they can still be good in a Valkyrie with Melta and shotguns. Still a suicide squad, but effective. Thoughts? How are you guys going to be running Veterans?

So I've been throwing some list together for 8th edition the last few weeks, and by a few I mean an unhealthy amount. With my Raven Guard I tend to stay away from tanks and fliers and try to keep a more marine based force with assault troops, scouts and land speeders. This of course puts me at the difficult position of squeezing as much my anti-tank fire power as I can from units that might not be as effective at it. For example, I might run double multimeltas on my land speeders, missile launchers in scouts squads, heavy weapons in sternguard and devestators etc... One of my go to options has always been melta bombs on my vanguards. As I was going over the rules I saw that the melta bomb was a grenade with a 4" range. That seemed fine to me until I realized that grenades can't be used in the fight phase and must be used in the shooting phase. Hmmm...this seems like a big nerf to my favorite explosive... I'm kind of struggling to come up with a scenario where a 4" range shooting attack would come in handy...For example take a basic vanguard squad with melta bombs; your options are: Deepstrike 9" away from target and shoot. [melta bomb wont be in range] Deepstrike 9" away and charge. [melta bomb can't be used in close combat] Walk the Vanguards to the target and "shoot" the melta bomb when within 4" Option 3 is the only way to make this work, right? I'm not missing anything? This is kind of a bummer as exposing vanguard veterans usually means your vv's wont be on the board the next turn. Also, most of my targets for melta bombs were usually the enemies back field support vehicles which will be difficult to reach without getting shot to pieces. At least if the melta bombs were usable in combat you have a chance to get the charge off, now they seem kind of neutered. What do you guys think? Am I missing something?

Tactics Time! :D Now, I am no Orks expert, nor even an Orks player yet. But they are very much on my radar at the moment (I have two "Start Collecting" boxes in my cart right now). And 8th Edition rules are such a drastic departure from 7th that a clean slate has been applied to the game, giving everything a degree of playability. It's a great opportunity for us to playtest units, weapon options and army lists. It's also past time we got an Ork Tactics thread started. :) For some added benefits, here's a link to Da WAAAGH!'s Tactics forum: http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showforum=4 To kick things off - the Brigade Detachment. At 2000 points, it is definitely a possibility, as every compulsory slot has units that cost <50 points. This allows you to meet the minimum requirements whilst still creating a themed and competitive army. 12+ Command Points is nothing to sneeze at! So my question is this... What would you take in a Brigade Detachment?

Hi all I had my second game yesterday. Matched Play, 2000 points. And I wanted to share some experiences I made. Pre-game showing off my new Stormraven: http://www.runekappel.com/Filer/figurer/game.JPG I played against an experienced player and good friend. He plays Death Guard, and has played a couple of games in 8th, totally trashing Grey Knights and Astra Militarum. Here is his list: ++ Patrol Detachment (Chaos - Daemons) [17 PL, 282pts] ++ + HQ [4 PL, 70pts] + Herald of Nurgle [4 PL, 70pts] + Troops [6 PL, 80pts] + Nurglings [6 PL, 80pts]: 4x Nurgling Swarms [80pts] + Fast Attack [7 PL, 132pts] + Plague Drones [7 PL, 132pts]: 2x Plague Drone [88pts], Plaguebringer [44pts] ++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Questor Traitoris) [23 PL, 474pts] ++ + Lord of War [23 PL, 474pts] + Renegade Knight [23 PL, 474pts]: Heavy stubber [4pts], Ironstorm Missile Pod [16pts], Reaper chainsword [30pts] . Rapid-fire battle cannon and heavy stubber [104pts]: Heavy stubber [4pts] ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [76 PL, 1241pts] ++ + HQ [20 PL, 344pts] + Daemon Prince with Wings [11 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon [10pts] Typhus [9 PL, 164pts] + Troops [18 PL, 276pts] + Poxwalkers [6 PL, 96pts]: 16x Poxwalker [96pts] Poxwalkers [6 PL, 90pts]: 15x Poxwalker [90pts] Poxwalkers [6 PL, 90pts]: 15x Poxwalker [90pts] + Elites [8 PL, 147pts] + Helbrute [8 PL, 147pts]: Missile launcher [25pts], Twin lascannon [50pts] + Fast Attack [30 PL, 474pts] + Foetid Bloat-drone [10 PL, 158pts]: Plague probe [25pts], 2x Plaguespitter [34pts] Foetid Bloat-drone [10 PL, 158pts]: Plague probe [25pts], 2x Plaguespitter [34pts] Foetid Bloat-drone [10 PL, 158pts]: Plague probe [25pts], 2x Plaguespitter [34pts] ++ Total: [116 PL, 1997pts] ++ And mine: Blood Angels Lemartes 129 Librarian Dreadnought: Furioso fist (Meltagun) 207 Captain: power sword; combi-plasma; jump pack 112 8 Scouts: Scout Sergeant (sniper rifle; camo cloak); 7 Scouts; 7 × sniper rifle; 7 × camo cloak 144 5 Death Company Marines: bolt pistol; 2 × boltgun; 2 × plasma pistol; power sword; thunder hammer; jump packs 138 Death Company Dreadnought: 2 Furioso fists (heavy flamer) 212 5 Death Company Marines: bolt pistol; 4 × boltgun; power axe; power sword; jump packs 109 8 Devastators: Space Marine Sergeant; Armorium Cherub; 7 Devastators; 2 × lascannon; 2 × plasma cannon 201 Predator: twin lascannon; 2 lascannons 202 5 Devastators: Space Marine Sergeant (chainsword); Armorium Cherub; 4 Devastators; grav-cannon and grav-amp; 2 × heavy flamer 132 Razorback: twin assault cannon; storm bolter 102 Stormraven Gunship: twin multi-melta; 2 hurricane bolters 311 1.999 points My plan was to flank him with Deathcompany Dreadnought, Lemartes and Death Company Squad embarked in Stormraven. All the while suppressing him with a bubble of devastators, scout snipers and a predator. All within 6 of the Captain who gives re-roll to 1's. I would say it worked better than hoped. Here is what I find worked really well. Maybe and hopefully it could be useful for fellow Blood Angels players too?: I got turn one, and The Stormraven performed fantastic, effortlessly blasting a Helbrute and giving me first-kill. Picture of Stormraven flanking Helbrute who is hiding in building, and giving him a taste of some Multimeltas: http://www.runekappel.com/Filer/figurer/game2.jpg After that I opened up with my 'shooty-bubble' and that was pretty destructive. Plasma Cannons are really good when close to the captain. I used my Sniper Squad for mopping up, when big models had few wounds left. Also pretty effective. As a Blood Angels player I find it a bit sad that the shooting is SO good in 8th. It's not good for my motivation to field a really assault oriented force. I use my Drop Pods as door stoppers in my apartment now - and they suck at that too. In his first round he rolled 12 shots for the Knights Cannon and blasted the Stormraven pretty bad. After that he charged it with his Deamon Prince and a Foetid Bloat Drone. The Deamon Prince had two Malefic Talons (S7, Ap-2, D2) and 7 attacks. Amazingly the Stormraven survived with just one wound left. Besides that he really didn't do much damage to my army, but used his turn to move his units against me. In my second turn my Death Company dudes jumped out of the Storm Raven and began pummeling the Deamon Prince and the Drone. Honourable mentions here must be Lemartes who threw a Krak grenade in the face of the Prince giving him 3 wounds. The Death Company Marine with Thunder Hammer finished the job. After that I jumped my small Devastator Squad with Heavy Flamers and Grav Cannon out of the Razorback, and used the Cherub to give the Grav Cannon 8 shots. This was a game ender. Those 8 grav-shots I aimed at the knight and with some good dice-roll succeeded in giving the big fu!%!"#"!!'er 12 wounds. With some more shooting on the knight, I almost brought it down (2 wounds left) and with the rest I had killed, that turn, my opponent conceded. With most of the bloat drones, the Knight and the Prince out, he didn't really had much left that could hurt me. So: Devastators with Grav Cannons, and Cherubs in Razorbacks are pretty badass. The razorback moves to a good position. Next turn you let the carnage commence when the Deva-dudes jumps out. Signum and cherub on grav-cannon on big target = pain for you opponent. The Bubble with the Captain and Devastator Squad/Sniper and Predator is really strong. My predator was the weakest part here. I'm not sure about those Lascannons. They are really hit and miss! And when you finally get that punishing wound through you always seems to roll a 1 or 2 for the wounds - whats up with that!? The Plasma Cannons on maximum power was much more consistent. My Captain was probably MVP. He actually succeeded in giving the Knight two wounds himself with his Combiplasma - but it was the bubble he created, that made the difference. The Stormraven with the Deathcompany loadout is strong AND fun. Lemartes + dread + 5 guys with jump packs deploying in the flank are really fast and hit like a brick. My Librarian Dreadnought didn't do much. It's too slow and not destructive enough. And very costly. Don't know if I'm gonna keep this guy. My newly painted Stormraven: http://www.runekappel.com/Filer/figurer/Storm1.jpg My also newly painted devastators: http://www.runekappel.com/Filer/figurer/Devastators2.jpg I hope someone my find this interesting when compiling an army.

Since nobody has stepped forward, I'll take the burden. I cannot do an in-depth review of every unit, much less maths, so just a few units for now; but that's a nice thing imho, so the community can fill the gaps, correct me when I'm wrong and bring ideas, combos, synergies and what not. And I'm pretty sure that here are some veteran DE players that would put this thread-o-pain in the place it belongs. So deal with me and feel free to contribute and share the pain. Archons. They are decent, but nothing spectacular, have a nice invuln and can take a Ld debuff in the form of the Phantasm GL. For wargear, the classic blast pistol+agonizer is pretty solid. If you want to take a Court of the Archon, Lhamaean and Sslyth are solid, but somewhat expensive. Drazhar. Is a beast in CQC, and buff the Incubi to insane levels of killyness. As like much of the DE stuff, he is better if he manages the charge (which shouldn't be that difficult because he is fast and can ride Raiders with his Incubi pals). To put this in numbers, on the charge a unit of 9 incubi+drazhar would be killing ~4 terminators, ~11 marines or ~17 guardsmen on average. It is not a cheap combo (dudes+ride is about ~430 points) but it can be nasty. Venoms. Awesome transport, screaming to be spammed. They're cheap, can be deadly to infantry with dual Splinter Cannon (12 shots that wound non-vehicles on 4+) forcing a lot of saves (which you can add the firepower of the transported unit if necessary), high mobility at 16". It also have a 5++ save and are hit with a -1 penalty, meaning that plasma weapons aimed at him would overheat on 1-2 on a D6 as per the new FAQ. While not specially tough in the statline, they are cheap and with the Flickerfield, the Night Shield, T6 and a 4+ save they are going to be more durable than the statline suggests. Warriors. Cheap and spammable, armed with splinter rifles and a trusty blaster they are great for dealing extra dmg on enemy units. Regarding Ravagers (always triple lance, unless your meta is really horde-heavy) I'm going to quote the Potato God here: On the Voidravens he's referring to the 6.667 mortal wounds it would deal on average against non-vehicle/monster units of 10+ models. But I also love the Razorwing jetfighter, with dual lances, splinter cannon, and funky missiles it's a very annoying unit (and a really good looking model) that can caress everything for just 170 points. For the Reavers I'm going to just quote Slips, as he grasps them better than me: And lastly I'm going to quote myself regarding Talos because I'm really tired: "If you like big nasty things, triple talos (barebones) can also deal a lot of damage both in the shooting phase and in close combat, and you'll like to have a friendly (if that is even possible) haemonculus near them, for a nice and sweet +1T bonus." Looking forward to see your thought on this. Cheers!

The thing I like about Space Marines is the character creation you can go through. It's where the real customisation lies in our otherwise uniform army. Our character choices, particularly our Warlord choices, affect our army playstyle and build in particular. What sorts of flavour do you like to use with your characters? Who's your Warlord and what's his character? How do you use him? Show us a picture! I'm out the country at the moment so can't take a photo but I will do soon as I get home! **** My army is themed on a Victrix Guard style of Ultramarines, hence why they use a Horus Heresy era style that would be Guilliman approved. MK4 abound, with a few exceptions in the specialist squads (my Vanguard had such great options for heads) and a classic gold and blue colour scheme, my army looks more inspiring than any I had painted before. My army is lead by Captain Aetheleous: Formly of the 5th Company; wielding a plasma pistol and Relic Blade, an ancient power sword of unknown providence. Atheleous is known for being a no-nonsense and fairly humorousless commander among those under his command, though this is perhaps somewhat unfair. Those who get to know him, reserved for only a select individuals, could pick out wry comments many would miss or even assume were serious, such is the subtlety of the expression of his mirth. As befits a Captain of such character, I usually grant Atheleous the Adept of the Codex Warlord trait to simulate his commanding presence. However, I have toyed with the idea of Storm of Fire since it makes sense he would organise a firing line expertly. What do people think of that? I also give him the Sanctic Halo. It's absurdly good and means he's very survivable no matter the modifier he's up against. In fact, against anything with a modifier he's almost as survivable as a Cataphractii Captain (minus the wound). Tactically he rolls up the table in a Rhino along with solid line infantry - either Sternguard or Tactical Marines. Usually the Sternguard. He hits a particular part of the enemy line calculated to rip a hole that can't be easily filled. The way I do this is utilise Vanguard and Cataphractii Terminators (along with another Captain) to provide severe pressure on the opponent so they completely lose the initiative. Taking on the Sternguard isn't always easy in this circumstance.

In this topic I'd like us to discuss our preferred methods for using Sternguard veteran squads in Ultramarines armies. Things to consider: - Unit size - Transportation/delivery methods - role - equipment - army synergy My current build is a fairly simple option - 8 strong, all special issue Bolters and a lightning claw on the Sergeant. This squad goes in a Rhino with a Captain. The unit isn't an isolated attack force, working alongside Cataphractii Terminators and Vanguard. With the Masterful Marksmanship Stratagem they are fairly good at killing stuff, but not to the extent of overkill really. One thing I'm considering is adding special weapons or 2 Heavy flamers. My thoughts on this was to give the unit sharper teeth when jumping out of a Rhino. 2 Heavy flamers are definitely powerful but I toyed with the idea of a pair of melta guns. What do people think about this? The squad is a hit squad so a pair of melta guns could ensure the unit is more decisive against hard targets and characters. However, heavy flamers are still powerful and hard to pass up as it makes the squad dangerous. *** What are you preferences? Someone mentioned once upon a time that Storm Bolters are better and cheaper for Sternguard jumping out of a Rhino. I don't do the maths but I felt AP-2 along with Masterful Marksmanship was quite effective? What else is there regarding this?

This army is the next big thing in competetive games seeing how their gun lines are superb and numerous. How do we best them? I've got theoretical but no practical this edition. Decent terrain is a must against them I feel. For too long an open table has been considered "normal". My initial theoretical are decent numbers (My go to answer) mixed with reasonable fire support and an attack force. I have Cataphractii Terminators and Vanguard who can spear head an attack, along with a Rhino full of Sternguard, which is ideal for most armies but I do worry against Astra Millitarum.

Looking at some of these lost legion projects I've noticed many focus on building a legion around a tactic missing from the known legions. Which got me thinking, is there a comprehensive list of what each legion's specialty is? I know the obvious ones, like Imperial Fists are siege defense, Iron Warriors besieger, Alpha Legion espionage. But legions like Ultramarine, Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children... do they have specialties? And beyond that, what specialties/tactics are missed by the Legions?

I am slowly getting back into 40K. The release of 8th grabbed my attention and the first few small games were fun and quick. The changes to the game has sped it up and enlivened the feel to the game. Some things are catching me out, such as the way modifiers interact with re-rolls, mortal wounds versus special saves taken to ignore wounds and the plethora of unique rules and costings. So this thread is meant to be something of a blog, soapbox and chat group to talk about my experiences and thoughts about the Unforgiven. Fluff changes: The new book contained some difficult to swallow changes, I am not a fan of primaris marines so was especially wary about how necessary GW had made them. I was pleasantly surprised to realise though that pretty much all of the new and unfamiliar units are simply another option. My lists look, feel and play remarkably similar to my old lists and this is a comforting surprise. They operate on the table quite differently because of how some of the changes affect the units. The changes to movement and deep striking keeps catching me out but I really like the impact it has on how movement and positioning matter. I can't say I'm a huge fan of bubble wrapping to counter enemy reserves and fast flankers but it definitely adds a much greater give & take aspect to piece trading. Being able to disengage from combats by falling back has so far proven one of the most influential changes to my games. Points or Power levels: I like power levels. Point costs and values are still probably the more balanced way to play but there is something nice about writing a list where you can put the list together in just a couple of minutes because you just have to worry about the units and not individual wargear. I go to a couple of clubs and at one of them power levels are the default whereas the other prefers to use points. At this stage I am happy with either as each is proving advantageous for list creation/exploitation. My most recent pair of games used each. A small 50 power game to introduce someone to the new system and a 1500pt game against the newest shiny the Adeptus Custodes. 50 Power list Asmodai Lieutenant with storm bolter & power sword Min tactical squad with plasma pistol & plasmagun Min tactical squad with plasma pistol & plasmagun Full tactical squad with power sword, meltagun and lascannon Venerable Dreadnought with assault cannon Company champion Apothecary 2x Ravenwing attack bikes with multimeltas This list was pitted against Ahriman and a Rubric force of mostly Thousand sons (using the index list) with a forgefiend for some ranged oomph! The game used open war cards which are an interesting if very unpredictable way to play. The game itself was very fast paced with our deployment allowing both forces to deploy close to each other and objective scoring required aggressive manoeuvring. With the core of the Dark angel force deployed in the centre of the board and the Thousand sons wanting to get close so as to make the most of their rapid-fire and flamer weapons (and psychic powers) gambled on being able to wipe out the marines quickly. A big punch-up in the centre wiped out the sorcerer's minions and dragged them forward in front of the remaining fodder leaving them victim to the multimeltas of the ravenwing. Honour to the venerable dreadnought who not only led the charge to engage and slaughter the bulk of the rubric marines as well as ripped the forgefiend. 1500pt list Azrael Asmodai Lt with power sword and storm bolter Apothecary Company champion (eye of the unseen) 5x company veterans each with a storm bolter, 1 with a storm shield, 3 power swords, 1 power maul. Ravenwing apothecary 5 marines with plasma pistol and plasmagun 5 marines with plasma pistol and plasmagun 10 marines with power sword 10 marines with power sword 5 devastators with 3 missile launchers and 1 lascannon rhino with 2x storm bolters Ravenwing darkshroud with heavy bolter This list had to face the might of the Adeptus Custodes and I am in some ways grateful that my opponent was very limited in his options. His list featured the new special character, a second HQ, 3 five strong squads of custodes (1 squad with halberds and 2 with swords and storm shields) plus 2 venerable contemptor dreadnoughts. I can confidently say that trying to kill the new custodes is an arduous task without the right tools. Fortunately, plasma is probably one of the best options and weapons from the dark age helps inordinately. As does Azrael's aura bubbles of re-rolls and invulnerable saves. I was also helped that the scenario was from the rulebook (secure and control) which meant my opponent initially left one of his squads guarding his objective, effectively removing them from the game for most of it. I want to take time to give special mention to the Company veterans who saved Azrael's life because of the honour guard rule, dealt out impressive firepower with those stormbolters and respectable melee clout but man of the match was the storm shield guy who tanked every hit the custodes assigned to his unit. With Azrael and Asmodai nearby at all times they were very impressive and will definitely be fielding them again. Equipped this way they weren't even very expensive. The near horde of marines may not have been the biggest contributors (although the plasma weapons provided a steady stream of multi-damage firepower) and I was glad to have them. The devastators proved helpful for quick deletion of any model that did manage to fail it's save and the darkshroud was helpful in lessening the impact of the enemies guns. (Particularly because the dreadnoughts also had to contend with the mod for moving and firing heavy weapons. The following are some more detailed thoughts about some of the units I've been using. Apothecaries: These have fast become a staple of my lists and with the discovery of how well veterans can protect out characters when they get embroiled in combats I am increasingly enamoured of them. Healing a few wounds on a character is great but bringing a member of a unit back to the fight can be game changing. The basic apothecary is good because he's cheap, innocuous and rarely appears worth the effort to attack. The ravenwing apothecary however can contribute quite substantially thanks to his plasma talon and the mobility afforded by his bike. He keeps impressing me but the risk of not doing anything with his guns if I try to bring a model back does make him more focused on healing wounded heroes. Company champion: I've been giving him the relic "Eye of the unseen" to ensure he goes before enemy characters and the extra mod to enemy leadership has come into play in a couple of other games. Mostly though I regard him as just an amazing bargain for what you get. Azrael and Asmodai make him more survivable and threatening with his blade of caliban too so he has so far proven a very worthwhile addition to the army. Company veterans: In the last book my head was alway seething with ideas for how I'd like to field these guys but I rarely if ever put them on the table. Considering their versatility and low base cost I am going to be experimenting and sticking them in lists a lot more now. I am not sure about precisely how they body guard rule works against weapons with damage over 1 since it says the roll to intercept the hit comes after the character has lost a wound so currently I'm working around the assumption that it applies after damage. (So if I fail a save on Azrael against a damage 3 weapon I would then make 3 rolls to pass the damage on to the veterans. Potentially resulting in 3 mortal wounds on the veteran squad.) This can attrition the squad down very quickly so I doubt I will ever spend too many points on every member of the unit, however as a means of keeping our characters alive that little bit longer I feel this unit is now very valuable indeed. Hopefully in the near future I will be adding some more hobby related content as I get back into painting figures. Currently on the painting table are some Deathwing knights and the company veterans I have talked about in this first post.

I'm taking my Ultramarines to a tournament in January. My list choice is pretty set because of models available but I wanted to start a discussion on what sort of hurdles Ultramarines will have to overcome to win our games? Major challenges such as gun lines lead by Guilliman is a particular worry for me. Imperial Guard/Astra Millitarum with ALL the tanks could be a problem. Hmmm what else? Dark Angels and Blood Angels are superior to us in most games so I think a balanced list of either is going to be difficult for me but if they specialise their armylist along shooting and close combat respectively I actually fancy my chances. Here's my list: It's struggling points wise to make many changes without losing a crucial attack force and I know the Terminators need their Captain for added punch when I drop the Vanguard and Terminators onto the enemy. The Techmarine was included simply because he was cheap and helped my Dreadnought more than a Chaplain would help the Sternguard and Captain. The Culexus Assassin is amazing and a trump card. He's the reason I had to ditch my lovely Captain in Cataphractii armour. Anyway, you can see that my list has large numbers and a mix between attacking potential and a shooting support base. I have used to it defeat a friend's Grey Knights who is a highly competetive player (as well as other less competetive players). I fancy my chances against most Marines lists. I reckon I can beat Tyranids except maybe their gun line armies. Like I said, it's things like Guilliman protecting a gunline. My attack force will meet a Primarch and probably die when I need it, along with my shooting, to take out the gunline.